LegCo Paper No. FC 52/96-97

(These minutes have been seen by the Administration)
Ref : CB1/F/1/2

Legislative Council Finance Committee

Minutes of the proceedings of the meeting
held on Friday, 10 January 1997
at 2:30 pm in the Legislative Council Chamber

Members present :

    Dr Hon YEUNG Sum (Chairman)
    Hon CHAN Kam-lam (Deputy Chairman)
    Hon Allen LEE, CBE, JP
    Hon Mrs Selina CHOW, OBE, JP
    Hon Martin LEE, QC, JP
    Hon NGAI Shiu-kit, OBE, JP
    Hon SZETO Wah
    Hon LAU Wong-fat, OBE, JP
    Hon Edward S T HO, OBE, JP
    Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung, OBE, JP
    Hon Albert CHAN Wai-yip
    Hon CHEUNG Man-kwong
    Hon CHIM Pui-chung
    Hon Michael HO Mun-ka
    Dr Hon HUANG Chen-ya, MBE
    Hon Emily LAU Wai-hing
    Hon LEE Wing-tat
    Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung, OBE, JP
    Hon Fred LI Wah-ming
    Hon Henry TANG Ying-yen, JP
    Hon James TO Kun-sun
    Dr Hon Samuel WONG Ping-wai, OBE, FEng, JP
    Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
    Hon Howard YOUNG, JP
    Hon Zachary WONG Wai-yin
    Hon Christine LOH Kung-wai
    Hon James TIEN Pei-chun, OBE, JP
    Hon LEE Cheuk-yan
    Hon CHAN Wing-chan
    Hon CHAN Yuen-han
    Hon Andrew CHENG Kar-foo
    Hon Paul CHENG Ming-fun
    Hon CHENG Yiu-tong
    Hon CHEUNG Hon-chung
    Hon CHOY Kan-pui, JP
    Hon David CHU Yu-lin
    Hon IP Kwok-him
    Hon Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP
    Hon LAW Chi-kwong
    Hon LEUNG Yiu-chung
    Hon Bruce LIU Sing-lee
    Hon LO Suk-ching
    Hon Margaret NG
    Hon NGAN Kam-chuen
    Hon SIN Chung-kai
    Hon TSANG Kin-shing
    Dr Hon John TSE Wing-ling
    Hon Lawrence YUM Sin-ling

Members absent :

    Dr Hon David K P LI, OBE, LLD (Cantab), JP
    Hon Ronald ARCULLI, OBE, JP
    Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, OBE, JP
    Hon Frederick FUNG Kin-kee
    Dr Hon Anthony CHEUNG Bing-leung
    Hon Albert HO Chun-yan
    Hon LAU Chin-shek
    Dr Hon LAW Cheung-kwok
    Hon LEE Kai-ming
    Hon MOK Ying-fan
    Hon Mrs Elizabeth WONG, CBE, ISO, JP

Public officers attending :

Mr Kevin HO, JP
Deputy Secretary for the Treasury
Mrs Lilian WONG
Principal Executive Officer (General), Finance Branch
Mr Stephen LAU
Principal Assistant Secretary for the Civil Service
Mr Paul TANG, JP
Deputy Director of Administration

Clerk in attendance :

Miss Pauline NG
Assistant Secretary General 1

Staff in attendance :

Mrs Constance LI
Chief Assistant Secretary (Finance Committee)
Mr Andy LAU
Senior Assistant Secretary (Finance Committee)


Item No. 1 - FCR(96-97)87
RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE PUBLIC WORKS SUBCOMMITTEE MADE ON 4 AND 18 DECEMBER 1996

The meeting noted that one of the recommendations of the Public Works Subcommittee on 4 December 1996 was an item under the Airport Core Programme [PWSC(96-97)74 "West Kowloon reclamation- remaining hinterland drainage works and sewerage network package 1"]. The title of paper FCR(96-97)87 should therefore be amended to read "Recommendations of the Public Works Subcommittee on Airport Core Programme and Non-Airport Core Programme".

2. The Committee approved the proposal.

Item No. 2 - FCR(96-97)88
HEAD 46 - GENERAL EXPENSES OF THE CIVIL SERVICE

• Subhead 033 Home Financing Scheme

3. In response to members’ questions, the Principal Assistant Secretary for the Civil Service explained the arrangements for officers on Master Pay Scale (MPS) point 34 or above (or equivalent) to join the Home Financing Scheme (HFS). He advised that officers appointed before 1 October 1990 who qualified for the Private Tenancy Allowance (PTA) or Non-departmental Quarters (NDQ) had an option to join HFS by forfeiting their entitlements to PTA or NDQ. The increased number of applications under HFS could be attributed to the decision of these officers to give up NDQ or PTA to join HFS. It was, however, difficult to predict how many of the remaining officers in this group would switch to HFS in the coming year. As regards the increase in the average payment under HFS, he clarified that there had not been an increase in the rate of the allowance, and the amount was based on the actual payments drawn by existing participants.

Admin

4. At the request of a member, the Administration undertook to provide further information on the number of officers who were still residing in NDQ or drawing PTA.

5. The Committee approved the proposal.

Item No. 3 - FCR(96-97)89
HEAD 112 - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL COMMISSION
• Subhead 872 Setting up and winding up allowances for Members of the
Legislative Council

6. The Chairman declared that all members had the same pecuniary interest in the matter and they could all vote on the proposal.

7. Members had arguments over the conditions governing the release of winding up allowance to Members. Some members were of the view that, according to paragraph 6 of the discussion paper, all Members of the Legislative Council should be eligible to claim the winding up allowance when they ceased to be Members of the present Legislative Council upon its dissolution on 30 June 1997. In response, the Deputy Director of Administration (DD/Admin) clarified that there was no change to the present condition for the release of winding up allowance, i.e. when Members ceased to be members of the legislature, either because they chose not to stand for re-election or for reasons over which they had no control. Members who continued to serve the legislature after 30 June 1997 could not be regarded to have ceased office for the purpose of receiving the winding up allowance. The modifications as proposed by the Commission on Remuneration for Members of the Legislative Council (the Commission) were only to lift the current limit of $180,000 for the winding up allowance, so as to assist Members to meet their contractual obligations and statutory requirements in respect of severance payments when they had to leave office for reasons beyond their control. For the fixed component part of the allowance, it would be equivalent to the allowance for office and staff costs and the district office allowance under the monthly operating expenses reimbursement, i.e. up to a maximum of $92,780 at present rates, payable on a reimbursement purpose, of which $10,000 might be claimed against certified claims of expenses incurred, to enable Members to cover all expenses incurred, except for severance payments, when they had to leave office for reasons beyond their control. As for severance payments to staff employed by Members using their monthly allowance, there would not be a pre-set ceiling, and payments would be made on the basis of actual severance payments granted in accordance with the provisions of the Employment Ordinance. Notwithstanding the Administration’s explanation, some members disagreed that the paper did reflect such an understanding in relation to the situation on 1 July 1997 when all Members were required to step down from their present office.

8. Some members of the LegCo Subcommittee on Review of Allowances for Members of the Legislative Council (the Subcommittee) relayed to the meeting that their deliberations had taken into account changes in tenure of office and re-elections. The Subcommittee was of the opinion that the winding up allowance should only be payable to those Members who had to cease office and who actually winded up their offices and granted severance payments to their staff in accordance with the Employment Ordinance. There had not been any intention to pay the winding up allowance to those who remained as members of the legislature and continued to employ their staff for the same duties. It was based on this understanding that the LegCo House Committee endorsed the Subcommittee’s recommendations on 7 June 1996 for consideration by the Commission. In this connection, the Administration and the Clerk to the Finance Committee confirmed that the above understanding was in line with the recommendations of the Commission in respect of the winding up allowance for LegCo Members.

xx

9. Some members pointed out that members of the Provisional Legislature might not be eligible for a district office allowance, and might therefore have to cut down on the number of staff they engaged upon cessation of office as Members of the present Legislative Council after 30 June 1997. In these circumstances, it would only be fair for these Members to give the redundant staff their severance pay out of the winding up allowance. In this connection, DD/Admin advised that it would be up to the Members who continued to serve the legislature after 30 June 1997 to decide, as employers, whether they needed to terminate the tenancy of their district offices or the employment contracts of their staff and give out severance pay accordingly. However, they could not claim winding up allowance to cover these expenses. The situation was the same as Members who were re-elected to the legislature in 1995. They too were not eligible for the winding up allowance. As regards the situation where Members continued to employ their existing LegCo staff after they ceased to be LegCo Members, the Chairman pointed out that, according to paragraphs 6 and 7 of the Commission’s report, the LegCo Members concerned would not incur a statutory liability to give severance payments at the time they stepped down from office, but only when they eventually ceased to employ the staff. The Commission was of the view that if the incumbent LegCo Members who did not serve the legislature after 30 June 1997 did not terminate their staff contracts and pay the necessary severance pay at the time they stepped down from office, the Administration should no longer be responsible for any severance pay given by Members to their staff at a later date. With regard to the details of implementation, the Chairman advised that these could be further discussed by the Subcommittee.

10. After discussion, some members maintained the view that the discussion paper did not set out clearly how the conditions for the release of the winding up allowance would apply to the change of office situation on 1 July 1997. The Chairman advised that the funding proposal should be considered independently of any constitutional issues, and members should vote on the proposal strictly on the basis of the recommendations of the Commission as confirmed by the Administration.

11. As the proposal had been discussed at length, the Chairman put the proposal to vote: 37 members voted for the proposal and six against.

Ayes:

Hon Martin LEE

Hon NGAI Shiu-kit

Hon SZETO Wah

Hon LAU Wong-fat

Hon Edward S T HO

Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung

Hon Albert CHAN Wai-yip

Hon CHEUNG Man-kwong

Hon Michael HO Mun-ka

Dr Hon HUANG Chen-ya

Hon Emily LAU Wai-hing

Hon LEE Wing-tat

Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung

Hon Fred LI Wah-ming

Hon Henry TANG Ying-yen

Hon James TO Kun-sun

Dr Hon Samuel WONG Ping-wai

Hon Zachary WONG Wai-yin

Hon Christine LOH Kung-wai

Hon LEE Cheuk-yan

Hon CHAN Wing-chan

Hon CHAN Yuen-han

Hon Andrew CHENG Kar-foo

Hon Paul CHENG Ming-fun

Hon CHENG Yiu-tong

Hon CHOY Kan-pui

Hon David CHU Yu-lin

Hon IP Kwok-him

Hon LAW Chi-kwong

Hon LEUNG Yiu-chung

Hon LO Suk-ching

Hon Margaret NG

Hon NGAN Kam-chuen

Hon SIN Chung-kai

Hon TSANG Kin-shing

Dr Hon John TSE Wing-ling

Hon Lawrence YUM Sin-ling


(37 members)

Nos:

Hon Allen LEE

Hon Mrs Selina CHOW

Hon CHIM Pui-chung

Hon Howard YOUNG

Hon James TIEN Pei-chun

Hon CHAN Kam-lam

(6 members)

12. The proposal was approved by the Committee.

13. The Committee was adjourned at 3:50 pm.

Legislative Council Secretariat
27 January 1997


Last Updated on {{PUBLISH AUTO[[DATE("d mmm, yyyy")]]}}