Provisional Legislative Council

PLC Paper No. CB(2)1499
(These minutes have been
seen by the Administration)

Ref : CB2/BC/3/97

Bills Committee on
Legislative Council Bill

Minutes of the meeting held on Friday, 5 September 1997 from 8:30 am to 3:35 pm in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building

Members Present :

Hon Ambrose LAU Hon-chuen, JP (Chairman)
Hon Ronald ARCULLI, JP (Deputy Chairman)
Hon WONG Siu-yee
Hon NG Leung-sing
Prof Hon NG Ching-fai
Hon LEE Kai-ming
Hon Mrs Elsie TU, GBM
Hon YUEN Mo
Hon MA Fung-kwok
Hon Mrs Sophie LEUNG LAU Yau-fun, JP
Hon CHAN Choi-hi
Hon CHAN Yuen-han
Hon CHAN Wing-chan
Hon CHAN Kam-lam
Hon TSANG Yok-sing
Hon CHENG Kai-nam
Hon Andrew WONG Wang-fat, JP
Hon Kennedy WONG Ying-ho
Hon Howard YOUNG, JP
Dr Hon Charles YEUNG Chun-kam
Hon IP Kwok-him
Hon Bruce LIU Sing-lee
Hon Mrs Miriam LAU Kin-yee, JP
Hon CHOY So-yuk

Members Absent :

Dr Hon Raymond HO Chung-tai
Hon Eric LI Ka-cheung, JP
Hon Mrs Peggy LAM, JP
Hon Henry WU
Dr Hon LEONG Che-hung, JP
Hon Frederick FUNG Kin-kee
Dr Hon Philip WONG Yu-hong
Dr Hon TANG Siu-tong, JP
Hon Timothy FOK Tsun-ting

Attendance by Invitation :

Hong Kong & Kowloon Trades Union Council

Mr WONG Chun-wai

Mr LEE Kwok-keung

Mr CHU Shu-sun

Hong Kong Information Technology Council- and
Hong Kong Association for Computer Education Limited

Mr YIP Chee-tim

Mr NG Hok-ling

Mr L K TSANG

Mr John TSE

Mr Ringo CHAN

Hong Kong Video Industry Association Limited and
Hong Kong Theatres Association Limited

Mr Woody TSUNG

Mr CHUI Hung-kai

Hong Kong Book & Stationery Industry Association

Mr SHEN Peng-ying

Mr TSUI Sam

Mr SIO Kit

Mr LAU Yick-sang

G.M.B. Maxicab Operators General Association Limited

Mr HIEW Moo-siew

Mr TAM Fook-tin

Mr WONG Yun-fai

Mr SO Sai-hung

Mr LEE Keung

Joint Meeting of the Hong Kong Higher Education

Staff Associations

Prof W K KAN

Prof Joseph LAI

Prof Edwin PUN

Mr C K CHAN

Mr YEUNG Kim-wai

Mr Rowson K H LEE

Mr YAU Yuk-yin

Hong Kong Ship Owners Association,
Hong Kong Shipping Circles Association Limited and
Hong Kong Liner Shipping Association--

Mr KEUNG Shek-cheung

Mr CHUNG King-yan

Mr CHAN Yiu-keung

Mr M J ALLWOOD

Clerk in Attendance :

Mrs Justina LAM

Assistant Secretary General 2

Mrs Percy MA

Chief Assistant Secretary (2)3

Staff in Attendance :

Mr Jimmy MA

Legal Adviser

Miss Salumi CHAN

Senior Assistant Secretary (2) 1

---

I. Meeting with deputations

Hong Kong & Kowloon Trades Union Council
(PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(02))

At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of the Hong Kong & Kowloon Trades Union Council (HKKTUC) briefed members on their submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(02). They said that 65 out of HKKTUC's 70 members were trade unions registered under the Trade Unions Ordinance (Cap. 332) of which all the voting members were employees and therefore, entitled to vote for the Labour FC. As far as they knew, the total number of this type of trade unions was over 400. The adoption of the block vote system for the Labour FC election with such a small number of electors might lead to the domination of the electoral process by a particular political party. They preferred the single vote system under which each elector was entitled to choose only one candidate.

2. In response to some members' enquiries, representatives of HKKTUC said that the problem of domination had not occurred in the last two Legislative Council (LegCo) elections in 1991 and 1995. However, they were worried that the adoption of the block vote system in the LegCo election in 1998 might give rise to such a problem. As the Labour FC was composed of electors of different political background, it was essential to have a voting system which could prevent a particular political party from winning all three seats.

Hong Kong Information Technology Council--- and
Hong Kong Association for Computer Education Limited
(PLC Paper Nos. CB(2) 239(06), CB(2) 258(01) and CB(2) 277(04))

3. At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of the Hong Kong Information Technology Council (HKITC) briefed members on their submission which was tabled at the meeting and subsequently issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 258(01). They said that HKITC, comprising 18 associations of information technology (IT) background, was established about six months ago to strive for the setting up of the new IT FC. Having achieved this target, they were disappointed to note that the following four associations/bodies were not included in the list of electors for the IT FC -

1. Hong Kong Association for Computer Education Limited ;

2. IT Division of the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers ;

3. Hong Kong Telemedicine Association ; and

4. Hong Kong Society of Medical Informatics Limited.

Hong Kong Association for Computer Education Limited (HKACEL)

4. At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of HKACEL briefed members on their submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(06). They said that the objectives of HKACEL were to promote computer education and contribute to the formulation of computer education policies for primary and secondary schools in Hong Kong. It had over 200 members who were categorized into Associate Members and Professional Members. The latter included Ordinary Professional Members, Senior Professional Members and Fellows. All Professional Members were degree holders who had received relevant training and had working experience in education on IT for over two years.

5. Responding to members' enquiries, representatives of HKACEL pointed out that HKACEL was not included in the list of electors for any FCs. In view of its positive role and contribution in promoting education on IT, its Professional Members should be included as electors for the IT FC. They said that the Administration had declined their request on the ground that some of its Professional Members were entitled to vote in the Education FC. However, they did not consider this a valid reason because under the Bill, if a person was eligible to be registered in more than one FC, he would be allowed to be registered in any one of these FCs of his choice. Members of HKACEL considered that they could make the most contribution in the IT field and should therefore be allowed to vote in the IT FC.

6. Mr CHENG Kai-nam asked how many Professional Members of HKACEL were already entitled to vote in the IT FC by virtue of their membership with any of the six associations listed in item 28(1) to (6) in Schedule 1 of the Bill. Representatives of HKACEL said that the number involved should be no more than 10.

IT Division of the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers

7. Members noted that representatives of the IT Division of the Hong Kong Institution of Engineers would be meeting the Bills Committee the following morning (Saturday, 6 September 1997).

Hong Kong Telemedicine Association (HKTA)

8. Representatives of HKITC said that the objectives of HKTA were to provide communication channels for persons engaged in telemedicine technology in Hong Kong to facilitate the exchange of information on telemedicine and to enhance the application of IT on telemedicine. For example, HKTA had hosted a very successful global conference on telemedicine on 30 June and 1 July 1997. At present, HKTA had 26 members, all of whom were professors or professionals in telemedicine. Their contribution to the development and promotion of telemedicine on both the international and domestic fronts should be recognized. They should therefore be included in the list of electors for the IT FC.

Hong Kong Society of Medical Informatics Limited (HKSMIL)

9. Representatives of HKITC said that the objectives of HKSMIL were to provide communication channels for persons engaged in medical technology in Hong Kong to facilitate the exchange of information on medical informatics and to enhance the application of IT on medical informatics. It had about 300 members, 80% of whom being professionals in IT who were currently engaging in computer programming in the field of medical informatics. The remaining 20% were medical professionals who were involved in promoting the application of medical informatics. The professional status of the HKSMIL's members in the field of IT had been recognized by the International Medical Informatics Association. They should therefore be included in the list of electors for the IT FC.

10. At Mr Ronald ARCULLI's request, representatives of HKITC undertook to provide for members' reference further information about HKACEL, HKTA and HKSMIL, such as the memorandum and articles of association.

(Post-meeting note : Further submission of 8 September 1997 from HKACEL was issued to members vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 277(04).)

Hong Kong Video Industry Association Limited and
Hong Kong Threatres Association Limited
(PLC Paper Nos. CB(2) 239(07), CB(2) 258(02) and CB(2) 277(03))

Hong Kong Video Industry Association Limited (HKVIAL)

11. At the invitation of the Chairman, the representative of HKVIAL briefed members on its submission which was tabled at the meeting and subsequently issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 258(02). He pointed out that apart from the distribution of video products, most of the 90 members of HKVIAL were also engaged in the production and distribution of movies and television programmes. In view of the close relationship between their business and the movie/television industries, it would be more appropriate to include HKVIAL in the list of electors for the Sports, Performing Arts, Culture and Publication FC than that for the Wholesale and Retail FC as proposed under the Bill.

12. Mr CHAN Choi-hi enquired about the percentage of HKVIAL's members who were involved in the wholesale/retail of video products and that of those engaged in distribution/production of movies and television programmes. The representative of HKVIAL responded that he did not have such information. However, he reiterated that the business of most HKVIAL's members was related to movies and television programmes production. Mr NG Leung-sing considered that in the circumstances, HKVIAL's members should have joined the Movie Producers and Distributors Association (MPDA) of Hong Kong which was included in the list of electors for the Sports, Performing Arts, Culture and Publication FC. The representative of HKVIAL pointed out that as those HKVIAL's members who were involved in the production of movies were mostly investors, they could only join MPDA as its associate members and not full members.

13. The representative of HKVIAL added that on behalf of 10 associations including HKVIAL, MPDA and Hong Kong Threatres Association Limited, he would like to present their view that the 40 seats for the Sports, Performing Arts, Culture and Publication Subsector in the Third Sector of the Election Committee (EC) should be equally divided among the four groups so as to ensure a fair representation.

(Post-meeting note : A letter dated 4 September 1997 from the 10 associations was issued to members after the meeting vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 277(03).)

Hong Kong Threatres Association Limited (HKTAL)

14. At the invitation of the Chairman, the representative of HKTAL briefed members on its submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(07). He said that as the business of HKTAL's members was closely related to performing arts, it should be more appropriate to include HKTAL in the list of electors for the Sports, Performing Arts, Culture and Publication FC than that for the Wholesale and Retail FC as proposed under the Bill.

15. Ms CHOY So-yuk queried the basis of the arguments put forward by both HKVIAL and HKTAL. She cited an example of whether a retail shop selling sports shoes should be included in the list of electors for the Sports, Performing Arts, Culture and Publication FC. The representative of HKTAL did not consider this to be an appropriate comparison. He pointed out that threatres in Hong Kong were governed by the Places of Public Entertainment Ordinance (Cap. 172) and therefore, should not be regarded as retail shops.

16. Responding to some members, the representative of HKTAL said that all of the 96 threatres in Hong Kong were HKTAL's members. They had also submitted their views to the Administration and a reply was awaited.

Hong Kong Book & Stationery Industry Association
(PLC Paper Nos. CB(2) 239(03), CB(2) 277(05) and CB(2) 277(06))

17. At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of the Hong Kong Book & Stationery Industry Association (HKBSIA) briefed members on their submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(03). They pointed out that HKBSIA, formerly known as "The Hong Kong Booksellers' Association", was founded in 1920 and had about 500 members at present. About one half of its members were corporate members, 70% of whom were in the book publishing business. It was one of the seven members of the Hong Kong Publishing Federation Limited. Given that the other five members of the Federation had already been included in the list of electors for the Sports, Performing Arts, Culture and Publication FC (item 24(6)(a) to (e) in Schedule 1 of the Bill), the remaining two, i.e. HKBSIA and the Hong Kong Publishing Professionals Society (HKPPS), should also be included.

18. At members' request, representatives of HKBSIA undertook to provide further information about HKBSIA, such as its memorandum and articles of association, and to ask HKPPS to do the same if it so wished.

(Post-meeting note : A further submission from HKBSIA and a letter dated 8 September 1997 from HKPPS were issued to members vide PLC Paper Nos. CB(2) 277(06) and CB(2) 277(05) respectively.)

G.M.B. Maxicab Operators General Association Limited (PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(08))

19. At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of the G.M.B. Maxicab Operators General Association Limited (GMB) briefed members on their submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(08). They pointed out that of the total of 4 350 minibuses in Hong Kong, 2 100 or almost 50% were green minibuses. However, the red minibus operators were entitled to 16 votes while the green minibus operators were entitled to only three votes in total and that the GMB which represented 90% of green minibus operators in Hong Kong was entitled to only one vote. They requested that either the 48 corporate members of GMB which were licensed operators be given one vote each, or that the green minibus operators as a whole should be given the same number of votes as the red minibus operators i.e. 16 votes.

20. In response to members' enquiries, representatives of GMB said that they had also submitted their request to the Administration but a reply was awaited. They added that if each GMB's corporate member was entitled to one vote, they had no objection to the corporate members of other associations which were on the list of electors for the Transport FC having the same entitlement.

21. Members considered that clarification should be sought with the Administration on the criteria adopted in delineating the electorate for the Transport FC. To facilitate members to take the matter forward, representatives of GMB agreed to provide further information about the trade for members' reference.

Joint Meeting of the Hong Kong Higher Education Staff Associations
(PLC Paper No. CB(2) 247(03))

22. At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of the Joint Meeting of the Hong Kong Higher Education Staff Associations (Joint Meeting) briefed members on their submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 247(03). They said that the Joint Meeting, comprising staff associations of 10 tertiary institutions, urged for the setting up of a new Higher Education FC on the following grounds -

1. At present, the 10 tertiary institutions in Hong Kong had a total of over 50 000 students and 7 000 teaching staff and administrative personnel. With their expertise in teaching and professional knowledge, the teaching staff represented a major force in advancing the territory's progress and development. They should therefore have their own representatives in the legislature. They pointed out that though some of the Members of the existing legislature were lecturers of tertiary institutions, they were not elected to the legislature as representatives of the higher education sector ; and

2. The nature and development of higher education were very different from those of primary/secondary school education. With the Government allocating increased resources for the development of higher education, it was important to ensure that the resources would be put to effective use. In fact, Higher Education was one of the 15 groups proposed by the Preparatory Committee for consideration as the nine new FCs.

23. Regarding the Second Sector of EC, representatives of the Joint Meeting considered that the 20 members from the Education Subsector should be allocated on the basis of the number of staff in each of the 10 tertiary institutions. This arrangement would ensure that each institution would have at least one representative in EC and prevent over-representation of any one institution. Moreover, staff of individual institutions should have better knowledge of their colleagues and were therefore in a better position to elect suitable persons as their representatives.

24. Whilst appreciating the concern of the Joint Meeting, members pointed out that the addition of one more FC could only be achieved by deleting one of the proposed new nine FCs. It would be a difficult decision to make as to which one of the nine FCs should be deleted. In response to members' enquiries as to which FC should be taken out, representatives of the Joint Meeting said that this was not a decision to be made by them. They had no specific proposal in this aspect. However, they pointed out that their request conformed with the Preparatory Committee's decision.

25. Prof NG Ching-fai supported the request of the Joint Meeting.

Mr YAU Yuk-yin
(PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(04))

26. At the invitation of the Chairman, Mr YAU Yuk-yin briefed members on his submission which had been issued vide PLC Paper No. CB(2) 239(04). He proposed -

1. to adopt a "pyramid-like" system for LegCo election to ensure that the election would be conducted in a fair manner ;

2. to allocate the seats of LegCo in proportion to the number of electors of each individual sector of the community ; and

3. that all electors should be entitled to the same voting right.

27. Members noted Mr YAU's views.

Hong Kong Ship Owners Association,
Hong Kong Shipping Circles Association Limited and
Hong Kong Liner Shipping Association
(PLC Paper Nos. CB(2) 258(03), CB(2) 258(04) and CB(2) 277(01))

28. At the invitation of the Chairman, representatives of the Hong Kong Ship Owners Association (HKSOA), Hong Kong Shipping Circles Association Limited (HKSCAL) and Hong Kong Liner Shipping Association (HKLSA) briefed members on their submissions which were tabled at the meeting and subsequently issued vide PLC Paper Nos. CB(2) 258(03) and CB(2) 258(04) respectively. They were disappointed to note that under the proposed electorate for the Transport FC, land transport-related organizations would be given a total of 106 votes while those related to sea transport would only have 44 votes. They considered the principle of "one association one vote" proposed by the Administration unfair and that the number of electors for the Transport FC should be distributed proportionally between sea transport and land transport. They proposed that -

1. in line with the arrangement for some other FCs, such as the Tourism FC, members entitled to vote at general meetings of the important associations of the sea transport should be included in the list of electors for the Transport FC ; and

2. some large shipping companies should be added to the list of electors for the Transport FC.

29. In response to members' enquiries, representatives of HKSOA and HKSCAL said that the three associations only comprised corporate members, the total number of which was over 100. The representative of HKLSA added that HKLSA was an international organization comprising most of the main carriers moving containers in and out of Hong Kong.

30. On paragraph 28(a) above, Mr Howard YOUNG asked whether the three associations would have any objection if members entitled to vote at general meetings of the land transport-related associations were also included in the list of electors for the Transport FC. Representatives of HKSOA and HKSCAL responded that double standard should not be applied to the same FC. Mr Bruce LIU considered that the three associations were in fact applying double standard to the Transport FC by proposing that only members of "important associations" should be included in the list of electors.

31. On paragraph 28(b) above, members requested and representatives of HKSOA, HKSCAL and HKLSA agreed to provide a list of shipping companies which should be added to the list of electors for the Transport FC for members' reference.

(Post-meeting note : The further submission dated 6 September 1997 from HKSOA, HKSCAL and HKLSA was issued to members vide CB(2) 277(01).)

II. Date of next meeting

32. The Chairman reminded members that the next meeting would be held on Saturday, 6 September 1997 at 8:30 am in the Chamber of the Legislative Council Building.

33. The meeting ended at 3:35 pm.

Provisional Legislative Council Secretariat
9 March 1998