OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Saturday, 22 February 1997
The Council met at half-past Nine o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT

THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG SIU-YEE

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY WU

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YUEN MO

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHUN-YING, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHOI-HI

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

THE HONOURABLE TSANG YOK-SING

THE HONOURABLE CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE KENNEDY WONG YING-HO

DR THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG CHUN-KAM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING

THE HONOURABLE KAN FOOK-YEE

THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE MARIA TAM WAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

MEMBERS ABSENT:

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

CLERK IN ATTENDANCE:

MS PAULINE NG MAN-WAH

CLERK TO THE PROVISIONAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL

OBITUARY TRIBUTE

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Before the meeting officially starts, Members please remain standing to observe three minutes' silence in tribute to Mr DENG Xiaoping, the great politician who passed away three days ago.

(All Members of the Provisional Legislative Council observed three minutes' silence to pay reverence and respect to the memory of Mr DENG Xiaoping.)

ANNOUNCEMENT

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, please be seated.

Mr DENG Xiaoping passed away after an illness on the 19th in Beijing. Throughout his extraordinary life span, he had made tremendous contributions to his country and his countrymen. The achievement for which he was most lauded was that he successfully carried out in China a reformation and open policy, which contributed immensely to China's economic development and social progress and was widely recognized by the whole country and the international community.

The solving of the Hong Kong issue conglomerates Mr DENG Xiaoping's wisdom and painstaking efforts. It was he who came up with the concept of "one country, two systems" and formulated the policies of "Hong Kong people governing Hong Kong with a high degree of autonomy" and "no change for 50 years", which laid a solid foundation for the resumption of its sovereignty over Hong Kong by the Chinese Government. These series of important thoughts are fully embodied in the Sino-British Joint Declaration and the Basic Law of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR).

The late Mr DENG Xiaoping was greatly concerned about the Hong Kong issue. He regarded the implementation of policies suitable to Hong Kong as the key to maintaining its prosperity after China has resumed its sovereignty over Hong Kong. The existing system and most of the laws of Hong Kong can be retained, and after 1997, Hong Kong will continue to practice capitalism and many effective systems will still be adopted. Mr DENG Xiaoping believed that Hong Kong people can govern Hong Kong well. He also thought that it is possible to resolve international disputes by means of "one country, two systems", and that the future development of the Hong Kong SAR will prove that the concept of "one country, two systems" is feasible.

The establishment of the Hong Kong SAR is forthcoming. All Members of the Provisional Legislative Council (the Council) will try their best to carry out and complete their various tasks in an orderly manner, so as to implement the policy of "Hong Kong people governing Hong Kong with a high degree of autonomy" formulated by Mr DENG Xiaoping. We will strive to ensure that Hong Kong will have a smooth transition and continue to enjoy stability and prosperity, to fully implement Mr DENG Xiaoping's ideas and fulfil his wishes, and to depict a brilliant page in Chinese history.

Honourable Members, the meeting will now start. Since the Rules of Procedure of this Council have not yet been finalized, the following rules will apply to today's meeting:

(1) The quorum of the meeting shall be one half of all Members, that is, 30 Members.

(2) A Member may address this Council in either Cantonese, Putonghua or the English language.

(3) With regard to the two reports I am going to make under Item II of the Agenda, Members may ask short questions and seek elucidation on the contents of the reports but there will be no debate. Members wishing to speak should raise their hands.

(4) With regard to the four motions under Item III of the Agenda, Members may seek elucidation or express their views on the contents of the motions. If a Member seeks elucidation, the mover of the motion may give an explanation right away. If Members express their views on a motion, the mover of the motion may reply after all Members wishing to speak have had an opportunity of speaking and before the question is put.

(5) With regard to voting, Members will be asked to raise their hands to show whether they are in favour of or against a motion, or whether they abstain from voting. I will call upon those who are in favour of the motion, those against and those who abstain to raise their hands in that order and the Clerk will count the votes. I will read out the number of votes counted and then announce the voting result. If the number of votes in favour of the motion is greater than that against, the motion will be carried. If the votes are equally divided, I will exercise a casting vote. When I cast my vote, I will abide by the principle of keeping the motion open for future discussion.

If any Member finds it necessary to claim a division, please raise your hand before I announce the commencement of voting. During voting, the Clerk will record your names and the votes you cast. After the voting, I will announce the names of Members and the votes they cast.

PAPERS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I will now make two reports. Will Members please refer to the relevant papers?

The first paper is the "Interim Arrangements for servicing the Provisional Legislative Council", which chiefly advises Members on the staffing arrangements of the Provisional Legislative Council (the Council) and introduces the Office of the Secretariat, the services to be provided to Members by the Secretariat and the relevant financial arrangements. At present, Secretariat staff include the Clerk to the Council and the Legal Adviser. By early March, the number of staff will increase to 15. The relevant organizational chart is set out in Appendix I, while the Proposed Schedule of Delegated Authority for Personnel and Administrative Matters is attached at Appendix II. If Members pass the resolution on the setting up of the Working Group on Administrative Matters, the two appendices will be put to the Working Group for consideration at its first meeting to be held today.

The second paper is on the setting up of two working groups. The two working groups are the Working Group on Administrative Matters responsible for considering internal administrative matters, and the Working Group on Rules of Procedure responsible for considering the Rules of Procedure. The membership lists of these two Working Groups and the draft Rules of Procedure for Working Groups are attached at Appendices I and II of the paper. If Members endorse the setting up of the two Working Groups, the Secretariat will submit the draft Rules of Procedure for the Working Groups to the two Working Groups for discussion at their first meetings to be held today.

(Pause, waiting for Members to raise questions)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG Siu-yee.

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion standing in my name as set out on the Revised Agenda. I move that a Working Group on Administrative Matters be set up with the following 12 members: the Honourable WONG Siu-yee, the Honourable James TIEN, the Honourable Mrs Peggy LAM, the Honourable MA Fung-kwok, the Honourable MOK Ying-fan, the Honourable NGAI Shiu-kit, Dr the Honourable LEONG Che-hung, the Honourable IP Kwok-him, the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung, the Honourable Paul CHENG, the Honourable TANG Siu-tong and the Honourable LAU Kong-wah, who shall elect a Convenor and Deputy Convenor from among themselves and that the Working Group shall be authorized to determine, subject to any Rules of Procedure of the Council, its own practice and procedure and shall propose as soon as practicable the terms of reference of the Working Group to the Council for approval. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is the motion just proposed by Mr WONG Siu-yee. Does any Member wish to speak? Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask some questions regarding the reports you made. However, since you have already asked the Honourable WONG Siu-yee to move his motion, when can I raise the questions about your reports?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frederick FUNG, please be seated first. Before I asked Mr WONG Siu-yee to stand up to move his motion, I have allowed some time for Members to raise their hands and then ask questions. Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, today we are holding our first meeting and this is a vast place. When the Honourable WONG Siu-yee started to speak, I have immediately asked the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi when could we ask questions if we wished to. I would like to ask whether we can go back and ask questions about the first paper?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): All right, Members, since this is our first meeting, we are not very familiar with procedural matters. Therefore, this time I will allow Members to temporarily shelve Mr WONG Siu-yee's motion. However, we must first obtain Mr WONG's consent. Mr WONG, do you wish to give your consent?

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Yes, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you. Now I will allow Members to ask some short questions about the reports I made. Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask a question about staffing arrangements. Line three of the first paragraph of the paper mentions that a small team of the Legislative Council Secretariat staff has been engaged by contract by the Chief Executive (CE) to assist in the work of the Council as an interim arrangement. I would like to ask whether this team of seconded staff works under the CE or the Council, since they are engaged by the CE; whether they are staff of the Council who will be directly assigned duties by the Council, or are concurrently assigned duties by the CE, or whether they are totally unrelated to the CE? Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Our staff are engaged by the CE on contract terms and reassigned to the Council to assist it in its work. During the time they work for us, they are accountable to the Council and not to the CE, since the CE has already assigned them to work for us. As pointed out in the paper, this is only an interim arrangement. The arrangement will later be referred to the Working Group on Administrative Matters for further study to find out whether there are better ways of engaging these staff. After the Working Group on Administrative Matters has completed its consideration on this matter, relevant recommendations will be submitted to this Council for Members' deliberation and decision. Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): I would like to ask a question about funds. Item seven of the paper on funds does not specify the prices. I would like to ask about the amounts spent on acquiring a motor vehicle and the usage of the vehicle. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The paper referred to is the one on the budget of the Council. If Mr WONG Siu-yee's motion is carried, this budget will be referred to the Working Group on Administrative Matters to be set up for consideration. After the Working Group has studied this budget, it will be put to this Council for deliberation once again with or without amendment. Thus it is not necessary for us to discuss this question at this stage.

Is there anything else that requires elucidation? Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I just want to ask whether all expenditure of the Council before 1 July 1997 will be borne by the future SAR Government, that is, whether it will be an item of expenditure on the budget of the future SAR Government. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Yes, if the budget on expenditure to be submitted by the Working Group on Administrative Matters is adopted by all Members. On top of this, Members might incur expenses during this period, that is, the expenses actually incurred by individual Members in respect of their work in the Council which are to be reimbursed. Members, these expenses I just mentioned as incurred by Members in respect of their work in the Council which are to be reimbursed are not included in the said budget. After the establishment of the SAR, the sum of these two amounts shall be submitted to the relevant committees under the Council for approval. At present, the CE's Office will cover these expenses with funds advanced by the Central Government. Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to the hire of service in Item 6(c) on page 2 of the relevant paper, is that the correct amount or is it a typing mistake? Item (c) lists the amount as $10,000 to $499,999. Should it be $10,000 to $49,999 or not?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs LAM, the Clerk just told me that it is a typing mistake. Does any other Member wish to ask questions? Dr TANG Siu-tong.

DR TANG SIU-TONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, Item 1 in Appendix II indicates that the President acts on the advice of the Working Group on Administrative Matters. I would like to ask whether the Working Group on Administrative Matters is accountable to the President or the Council?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Appendix II is subject to the approval of the Working Group on Administrative Matters to be set up. Appendix II contains a proposal for the delegation of authority. The Working Group on Administrative Matters may agree with this proposal or amend it. Whether it amends the proposal or agrees to the proposal, it depends on the advice to be given by the Working Party, but someone has to do the work. Thus the delegation of authority as proposed in Appendix II has to be implemented either by the President of the Council or the Clerk to the Council. As for to whom this Working Group is accountable, of course it is accountable to the whole Council as its setting up is adopted by resolution by the whole Council. If there are no further questions, I would like to go back to the motion moved by Mr WONG Siu-yee.

Does any Member wish to speak on the motion moved by Mr WONG? Will Members in favour of the motion please raise your hands?

(Clerk counted the votes)

Please put down your hands. Will those against the motion please raise your hands?

(Clerk counted the votes)

Will those who abstain from voting please raise your hands?

(Clerk counted the votes)

The motion has been unanimously carried.

Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move the motion standing in my name as set out on the Revised Agenda: That a Working Group on Rules of Procedure be set up with the following members: the Honourable Mrs Elsie TU, the Honourable HO Chung-tai, the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW, the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi, the Honourable Miss CHAN Yuen-han, the Honourable Andrew WONG, the Honourable Kennedy WONG, the Honourable CHENG Kai-nam, the Honourable Bruce LIU, the Honourable Mrs Miriam LAU, the Honourable Ambrose LAU and the Honourable Miss Maria TAM who shall elect a Convenor and Deputy Convenor from among themselves and that the Working Group be authorized to determine, subject to any Rules of Procedure of the Council, its own practice and procedure and propose as soon as practicable the terms of reference of the Working Group to the Council for approval. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is Mr James TIEN's motion. Does any Member wish to speak? Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, when moving his motion, the Honourable James TIEN said that the Working Group shall be authorized to determine its own practice and procedure. I would like to ask Mr TIEN whether this is confined to the practice and procedure of this Working Group, or whether all the practices and procedures of other groups, including this Council, are included and to be determined by the Working Group?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese):Madam President, I was only referring to the terms of reference of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure. All others are not included.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are there any other questions? If not, the question of the above motion will be put.

Will Members in favour of this motion please raise your hands?

(Clerk counted the votes)

Will those against this motion please raise your hands?

(Clerk counted the votes)

Will those who abstain from voting please raise your hands?

(Clerk counted the votes)

I declare that the motion has been unanimously carried.

I now announce that the meeting will be suspended. It will resume after the Working Groups on Administrative Matters and Rules of Procedure have held their first meetings some time later.

(Meeting suspended)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, the meeting is now resumed. The third motion will be moved by the Honourable IP Kwok-him, the newly elected Convenor of the Working Group on Administrative Matters. Since the content of the motion was decided by the Working Group after the suspension of the meeting, I will now allow Mr IP Kwok-him to move his motion. Mr IP.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I move that the terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters be approved. Each of the Members now has a copy of the terms of reference in front of him. I shall now make a report to Members.

The terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters are: That the Working Group should be responsible to the Provisional Legislative Council (the Council) regarding the following matters, conduct reviews when appropriate and report periodically to the Council:

(a) matters related to the provision of administrative support and services through a Secretariat to the Council, including the staffing structure, terms of employment, office accommodation and other administrative arrangements pertaining to the smooth functioning of the Council and its committees/working groups;

(b) monitoring the operation of the Secretariat;

(c) making domestic arrangements for the meetings of the Council and its committees/working groups;

(d) deliberating on matters relating to the registration of Members' interests, honorarium and allowances for Members, services to Members and other administrative arrangements to facilitate the work of Members, and to make recommendations to the Council on such matters when appropriate;

(e) performing such other duties as the Council may by resolution determine.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the above question to you. Does each Member have a copy?

Does any Member wish to speak? Mr KAN Fook-yee.

MR KAN FOOK-YEE (in Cantonese): With regard to the terms of reference of the Working Group, I propose to place the second sentence of the first paragraph at the end to make it clearer, that is, the sentence which reads "That the Working Group should be responsible to the Provisional Legislative Council (the Council) regarding the following matters" should come first. It should then be followed by the enumeration of the five tasks, and the last sentence should be "The Working Group should conduct reviews when appropriate and report periodically to the Council". This sentence should be placed at the end. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KAN, are you proposing an amendment or just expressing your opinion for consideration by Mr IP Kwok-him?

MR KAN FOOK-YEE (in Cantonese): I was just expressing my opinion for consideration by the Honourable IP Kwok-him.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you. Mr Edward HO.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President. There is a problem about the wording in item (e), which concerns the translation between Chinese and English. Does the word "藉" have any meaning in the Chinese phrase "履行立法會藉決議決定的其他職務" ? The English version is "to perform such other duties that the Council may by resolution determines". Would it be better if the Chinese version is amended as "履行立法會決議決定的其他職責" (to perform such other duties that the Council resolves to decide on")?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This is also an opinion. I would like to obtain all the opinions first before asking Mr IP Kwok-him to give a collective reply.

Mr Dominic CHAN.

MR DOMINIC CHAN (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. In item (d), the words "registration of Members' interests" are used. Actually, it would be more appropriate to use the word "declaration". I suggest using the word "declaration".

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fine. Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, there is something unclear in the Chinese and English versions of item (c). The English version reads "to oversee the domestic arrangements for meetings of the Council and its committees and working groups", but the Chinese version does not carry the meaning of the verb "oversee". Let us consider how it can be amended. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are there any other comments? Dr LAW Cheung-kwok.

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Item (d) mentions that the proposed terms of reference of the Working Group include deliberating on matters relating to the honorarium and allowances for Members. I would like the Convenor of the Working Group to explain why it is thought appropriate for the work listed in item (d) to be included in the terms of reference of the Working Group. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAW seeks elucidation. Can Mr IP Kwok-him give an explanation?

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Yes, Madam President. The Working Group on Administrative Matters has been authorized by the Council to carry out a substantial study into the overall structure and efficient running of the Council. The present Legislative Council has a Legislative Council Commission shouldering such tasks. Under the Legislative Council Commission, there are committees to carry out studies in such respect and their recommendations will be put to the Legislative Council for consideration. The final decisions will be made by the Legislative Council Commission. Similarly, the Working Group on Administrative Matters has to discuss and make decisions on these matters.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAW Cheung-kwok, do you have a follow-up question?

DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I would like to ask the Honourable IP Kwok-him whether, according to his and the Working Group's understanding, matters relating to honorarium and allowances will be decided by Mr TUNG's Office, after which the Working Group will be notified of the decision for it to make certain arrangements. Is that what is meant to happen? Or does that decision require the Working Group's approval before it is executed? Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I would like to take this opportunity to furnish some background information. In the last unofficial meeting, Members agreed that I should propose to Mr TUNG that he should appoint an independent group to be responsible for studying matters relating to the honorarium and allowances of Members of the Council and making recommendations to him. Now I would like to ask Mr IP Kwok-him to respond again.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. If you have read the whole text, you will know that we have studied the topic of honorarium and allowances for Members. Having considered the finding, we will ask Mr TUNG's special committee for their comments or we will submit our views to the special committee. We will make a decision after taking these views into account. As for the arrangement for approval of funding, Members know that the special committee will finally submit their decision to this Council for approval of the relevant financial arrangement.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr IP Kwok-him. Dr LEONG Che-hung.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Madam President, today both our Working Groups are presenting papers to this Council after their meetings and the papers are in both Chinese and English. I think that it is really hard to prepare two versions of the papers with wordings that completely tally within such a short time. May I suggest to the President or this Council that we take the Chinese version as the authentic version, while the English version should be finalized after the Secretariat has studied the Chinese and English versions to see if there are discrepancies and made the necessary amendments.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think this is a procedural matter, which is also a very important one. Which version should we follow? It is now suggested that the Chinese version should prevail and the English version would be the translation. For the time being, this Council is conducting its business in a certain way and we now have a resolution. Later on, I will regard your suggestion as a view and will refer it to Mr IP Kwok-him for response together with the others. All right? Mr Eric LI.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, after listening to your explanation, I am much clearer now. However, the first paragraph of the terms of reference mentions that the Working Group should report periodically to the Provisional Legislative Council. Judging merely from the wording, Members only need to adopt the report, and there is no need to make any resolution or to resolve. However, when we look at the specific contents, items (d) and (e), in part, seem to involve recommendations and resolutions. I suggest that Mr IP should consider adding the words "and submit the relevant specific recommendations" after "report", in order to show that the recommendations submitted periodically need to be officially approved by us, for instead of simply adopting the report, we might have to debate on it before adopting it. In so doing, it seems that the connotations of items (d) and (e) can be included.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I shall make reference to the report submitted by the Working Group today and the report you made earlier. With regard to the terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters, item (a) in particular states that its terms of reference will include the staffing structure, terms of employment and office accommodation. However, it does not mention the authority to appoint staff. In the report you made in the beginning, you mentioned that the Working Group on Administrative Matters will authorize the President of the Council to appoint staff on the advice of the Working Group. It seems that the authority to appoint staff is vested in the President. If I look at the two reports together, I will come to this conclusion. I would like to seek elucidation on whether the decision to appoint staff is made by the Working Group on Administrative Matters, and whether the authority to appoint staff is vested in the Working Group or the President? I think it is better for the authority to appoint staff to be vested in the Working Group, since I am a bit worried that if the President were responsible for all matters relating to appointment, in case of any future dispute, the criticism would be directed against the President instead of against the resolution of the Working Group. So I hope that the authority to appoint staff will be included in the terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese):All right. Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am also a member of this Working Group. Just now the discussion was based on the Chinese version. We had studied the Chinese version in detail, but we only read the English version when we had arrived at this venue. So I propose that we adopt the Chinese version of our report as the correct version.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I would like to follow up the issue of the Chinese version raised just now. I think there might be some problems with the wordings. Among the five items (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e), only items (b), (d) and (e) are complete sentences while items (a) and (c) are not complete sentences. As long as the character "就" is deleted from items (a) and (c), these items will become complete sentences. That was to follow up the issue of the Chinese version.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): All right. Does any other Member have any comments? Mr NG Leung-sing.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. With regard to the comments made by the Honourable CHENG Kai-nam, there is obviously no verb in item (c) while there is one in the English version. Thus I hope that an amendment could be made as soon as possible.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE Kai-ming.

MR LEE KAI-MING (in Cantonese): Madam President, I just have a brief comment. In the report, the Provisional Legislative Council or the Council is used every now and then. I hope terms can be used more consistently.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fine. Are there any other comments? Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I wonder if one task has been included in the terms of reference. I hope the Honourable IP Kwok-him can give an answer later. I would like to know whether the arrangement of offices or venue for Council meetings are all being the responsibilities of the Working Group on Administrative Matters. For instance, is it the Working Group's responsibility to consider matters such as whether there are adequate facilities, whether there is a public gallery and whether it is possible to install push-button voting facilities? This task is not included in items (a) to (e) of the terms of reference now. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Professor NG Ching-fai.

PROF NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, just now two Members mentioned something wrong with the wordings of item (c). I think the matter can be quickly solved by changing the character "就" to "為", and the character "的" to"作", so that the phrase would become "為臨立會......作內部安排". Secondly, there is a more important point about item (d). The current Chinese version inevitably makes people think that we are considering on our own initiative, matters relating to our honorarium and allowances, which is largely different from the spirit just stated. It seems that the English version looks fine. The word "deliberate" is used in the English version, meaning that the proposal can be made by someone else. I think it is necessary for the wordings to specify clearly that proposal is made by the Chief Executive's Office, and that we are to respond to such a proposal. There would not be any problem then. The current Chinese version will definitely give people the impression that we are considering the matter on our own initiative.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Yes, Mr Edward HO. Mr HO, please switch on the machine and stand up.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): I am sorry. (PRESIDENT: Never mind.) I would like to clarify that the terms of reference of this Working Group may last through the following year and these would not cease to be adopted before July 1. I wonder if the Group has considered that there is a Legislative Council Commission (that is, the LegCo Commission) for the Legislative Council at present. Has the Group considered reviewing the existing structure and sought basic legal advice on the possible terms of reference? This has not been mentioned here.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Well, are there any other opinions? Mr Paul CHENG.

MR PAUL CHENG (in Cantonese): Are we going to adopt the Chinese version or both the Chinese and the English versions later on? I find that there is something wrong with the wordings in the English version and the English version is grammatically incorrect.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I see. I think both the Chinese and the English versions need improvements. Mr Ambrose LAU.

MR AMBROSE LAU (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I propose that (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) in the Chinese version should be amended as (1), (2), (3), (4), (5).

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): As some Members have to rush back to Hong Kong to attend another function, I will no longer invite Members to express their views. I now ask Mr IP Kwok-him to respond to the opinions given by Members. Mr IP Kwok-him.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I would like to thank Members for having expressed such a lot of valuable opinions. As we have a brief meeting with so limited time today, and we fear that we will take up the valuable time of other Members, the Group, therefore, has not studied the wordings thoroughly. However, we have already determined the general orientation. Summing up the opinions given by Members, I have made the following amendments. If Members think that the amended version is still not good enough, I would like to ask Madam President to allow us to tinker with the wordings further. However, this depends on Madam President's ruling. After listening to Members' remarks, I have made the amendments as follows: That the Working Group on Administrative Matters shall be responsible to the Provisional Legislative Council (the Council) regarding the following matters; the whole group of words "並在適當...... " immediately following shall be moved to the end in accordance with Members' opinions; the five items (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) shall be amended as items(1), (2), (3), (4), (5); the word "就" under items (1) and (3), that is items (a) and (c), shall be deleted. After deleting the word "就" under item (1), I will not make any other amendments on the wordings as according to Members, this paragraph is acceptable. As to item (2), that is item (b), only the word (2) is amended and the rest remains unchanged. After changing item (c) to item (3) and deleting the word "就", I think the words "監察有關" ("to monitor matters relating to") can be added at the beginning of this paragraph. It may then be clearer than that proposed by other Members. In other words, the whole sentence shall read "監察有關臨立會和其轄下委員會/工作小組會議的內部安排" ("to monitor matters relating to the making of domestic arrangements for the meetings of the Council and its committees/working groups"). I would like to ask Members to consider this proposal. A Member has pointed out that "臨時立法會" or "臨立會" is used every now and then in the Chinese text, and he suggested that terms should be used consistently. In fact, in the first sentence of the first paragraph, it has already been mentioned that "臨時立法會" is abbreviated as "臨立會". I would like to ask Members to consider whether this simple term is acceptable or not. Regarding the question raised by the Honourable CHIM Pui-chung, if we accept the above suggestion, "臨時立法會" under item (1) will be amended as "臨立會", and the wordings used will then be more consistent. Concerning item (4), that is the sentence "研究議員個人利益的登記" under item (d), "登記" will be amended as "申請" ─ I am sorry, I have got it wrong, it should be "申報". Item (5), that is item (e), is also amended as "履行臨立會以決議形式決定的其他職責" ("to perform such other duties as the Council may determine by way of resolution."), that is, the word "藉" ("by") is amended as "以" ("by way of"). Up till now, I wonder if Members have any views on the amendments to the terms of reference? Some Members have also raised other questions just now. However, I hope we can discuss the amendments first. On the reaching of an agreement, I will then proceed to respond to the worries or questions just referred to by Members. Madam President, do you agree to such an arrangement? Thank You.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Based on the views expressed by Members, Members actually do not object, in principle, to the terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters. On the contrary, Members agree in principle that the Group should be responsible for the work in these respects but Members find that there is something wrong with the wordings and that there are areas that need to be specified more clearly. As time is running short, I propose that Members agree to the terms of reference of the Working Group in principle whilst leaving the wordings and other details to be tinkered with to the Convenor and the members of the Group for them to conduct further discussions with Members after this meeting. Would Members please consider my proposal? Two Members have been putting up their hands for some time and a third Member has just raised his hand. It is better for them to speak now. Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the two remarks I just made are not related to tinkering with the wordings but the actual functions of the Working Group on Administrative Matters. The functions I mentioned have not been included in the existing terms of reference of the Group. I think that the Working Group should perform these two functions, that is employment of senior staff of the Secretariat and making arrangements for the basic facilities required by the meeting venue. I think the matters I put forward have nothing to do with tinkering with the wordings.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him, would you wait until all speeches have been made before making an explanation? Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I think the difference in meaning between the Chinese and English versions still cannot be solved even if item (d) is amended as proposed by the Honourable IP Kwok-him. "研究與議員個人利益" under item (d) will mislead others into thinking that we are discussing about our remuneration. Therefore, I agree to the opinions just put forward by the Honourable NG Ching-fai that the English version is more accurate. I hope the wordings can be more extensively amended. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Eric LI.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, concerning item (3), the Honourable IP Kwok-him has just mentioned "監察其他小組的工作" ("monitor the work of other Groups"). I am a little bit worried about this. How should we interpret the words "監察" ("monitor")? They sound as though we have done something wrong and the Working Group has to monitor and guide us. I believe that it is only a matter of wordings. I hope Mr IP can re-consider whether it would be better if some neutral words are used. For example, would it better if we use such wordings as "為工作小組作出安排" ("to make arrangements for Working Groups")?

Secondly, I would like to propose to you, Madam President, that we should not approve this by resolution today and then amend the wordings subsequently. I think that if a resolution is made in this manner, there would be more procedural problems. Can we adopt a "take note" method, that is, we accept this proposal in principle and wait for the publication of the next working report wherein the terms of reference will be more precisely set out before giving our approval? This may be a more clear-cut arrangement. These are for your consideration, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Well, I will call upon Mr IP to respond first.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, concerning the proposal just made by the Honourable Eric LI, if Members accept it, it is a good proposal after all. If we have already reached a clear consensus that the wordings should be tinkered with, I am glad to draft the terms of reference again together with the members of our Working Group and present them to the Council at the next meeting for final examination and approval by Members. Moreover, some Members have just mentioned matters related to the office accommodation, the application for funding and so on. In fact, we think that such matters have already been mentioned under item (1) and we have also discussed them. I would like to take this opportunity to report the result of the relevant discussions to the Council but I wonder if this is an appropriate time to do so. Thank you, Madam President. Actually, the Working Group has also mentioned that at present, the staff of the Secretariat are employed by the Chief Executive on contract terms, and their employment period will expire on 31 July 1997. To ensure that the secretarial services provided by the Provisional Legislative Council Secretariat adequately meet the needs, we propose that other staff who are about to report duty should also be employed by the Chief Executive in the same way until they are being incorporated into the existing staffing structure of the Legislative Council Secretariat in future. The Working Group has reached a consensus on this. Moreover, we also propose that the Secretariat should set up an office in Shenzhen. However, as Members basically take Hong Kong as the centre of their activities, we also suggest that the Honourable Mrs Rita FAN, President of the Provisional Legislative Council, assist the Secretariat in maintaining contacts with Members and assist Members in maintaining links among themselves. Under such circumstances, we think that the President of the Council may have to set up an office in Hong Kong in her name as a channel for contacting Members. Furthermore, concerning the employment of staff, purchasing of resources, materials and equipment, renting meeting venues and office premises, engagement of services and so on, we think that all these matters should be discussed, resolved and put forward for the Council's consideration by the Working Group and finally implemented by the President of the Council. These are our opinions and we hope that we have answered the question raised by Mr Frederick FUNG.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have already had a very long discussion and Mr IP has just given us a clear explanation on the two main matters. We agree in principle to the terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters. For matters such as the employment of staff, choice of meeting venues and so on in future, the Working Group should submit proposals to the whole Council for decision. Moreover, matters in respect of the salaries and allowances of Members are also very important and they have been referred to the Chief Executive. I hope he can appoint an independent group to be responsible for making proposals. The Working Group on Administrative Matters does not rule out the possibility of studying these proposals. Is there any Member who opposes to this arrangement? I will not ask Members to raise their hands this time. If Members agree to these two points, they are accepting the terms of reference in principle according to the proposal just made by Mr Eric LI. I will ask once again if there is any Members oppose to accepting the terms of reference in principle so as to allow the Working Group to start working immediately. No Member raises objection? Accordingly, I now rule that the whole Council agree in principle to the terms of reference of the Working Group on Administrative Matters as contained in the version of the document presented to us today with the addition of the two points just mentioned, in the hope that the Working Group can start working immediately. The original motion has placed great restrictions on the wordings, so I now ask Mr IP if he can withdraw his motion for the time being?

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): I agree. Moreover, Madam President, I have just forgotten one thing and I will make a report on this to the Council now. Our Group agree to hold meetings in Shenzhen and the venue of meeting will be the Huaxia Art Centre, that is, this venue. I hope Members will agree.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr IP Kwok-him. First, Members have already agreed to the terms of reference of the Working Group. Second, the Working Group proposed that the meetings of the whole Council should be held here. Mr IP, I am not quite sure whether the meetings of the Working Group will also be held here or not.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese) : Our proposal is that: if the Council and the committees under the Working Group would hold meetings (if any) in Shenzhen, we find this venue suitable. Therefore, we propose that whenever we hold meetings in Shenzhen, we should choose the Huaxia Art Centre as the meeting venue.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mr IP Kwok-him. If Members agree to accept the proposal made by Mr IP, they do not need to vote on this proposal. However, I would like to be more cautious. Do Members oppose to holding meetings here? Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not oppose to the proposal but I just want to find out about the situation. Has the Working Group on Administrative Matters considered other venues in Shenzhen and thought that those venues were not as good as this, or is this venue already the best? Can a report be made on this?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I call upon Mr IP Kwok-him to respond.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): According to information available, this venue is the best at the moment. Therefore, we accepted it.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Kam-lam.

MR CHAN KAM-LAM (in Cantonese): According to Mr IP Kwok-him, this venue is the best at the moment. That is to say, there may be some other better venues. Can members of the Working Group on Administrative Matters find out about the situation of other venues before a final decision is made? Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP, as time is limited, I hope we can finish the discussion on this item as soon as possible. I propose that we should continue to hold meetings here until the Working Group on Administrative Matters suggests to us another venue. Do Members agree to this proposal? Mr IP, what do you think?

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): It is a very good idea.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Is there any Member who opposes to this proposal? If not, that means Members have accepted the report made by the Working Group on Administrative Matters. The next item is the fourth motion, that is the one proposed by Mrs Selina CHOW, the newly elected Convenor of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure. Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I propose on behalf of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure that the Council agrees to the terms of reference of the Group. It is my pleasure to report to the Council that members of our Group have considered both the Chinese and English versions of the terms of reference. Therefore, both versions can be presented to the Council for approval. However, if any honourable colleague proposes to amend (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) as (1), (2), (3), (4) and (5), I will absolutely accept it. Our terms of reference comprises five functions. First of all, we deliberate and propose to the Provisional Legislative Council ("the Council") for its endorsement the rules of procedure to be adopted for the Council and its committees/working groups. In other words, proposals are committed to the Council for decisions.

The second function is to study and/or review the committee system of the Council at various stages of its work and make recommendations to the Council.

The third function is to formulate internal practices for adoption by the Council and its committees/working groups in the conduct of business in meetings. In comparison with the rules of procedure of the Council, these internal practices have higher flexibility. Members of the Working Groups have to be more flexible in order to meet the requirements of their work. Therefore, we hope that we can set some rules for them. However, it is up to them to decide whether or not to adopt these rules.

The fourth function is to consult regularly with the President on matters of practice and procedure in conducting business of the Council. (As we have not sought your consent yet, we have not abbreviated "the President of the Provisional Legislative Council" as "the President of the Council".)

The fifth item is to examine any procedural matters as referred to it by the Council, the President, or raised by members of the Working Group. It means that whenever anyone requests for our examination of procedural matters, we will be willing to do so. Members may note that all the words in the English version exactly correspond to those in the Chinese version. I hope the motion can be carried by Members so that our Working Group can continue with its examination. Than you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you, Mrs Selina CHOW. Mr CHAN Wing-chan.

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): Madam President, as item (3) mentioned "行事方式" ("practices") whilst item (4) mentioned "臨立會議事的行事方式和程序" ("practice and procedure in conducting business of the Council"), I would like to clarify the difference between the words "議事" ("conducting business") and "行事" ("practice"). Do they have different levels of meaning? If there is no great difference, can it be amended as "議事的方式和程序" ("ways and procedures in conducting business of the Council")? Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): The wordings adopted in the initial version is, in fact, "慣例", that is "practices" in English, meaning how to do and implement something. "行事方式" ("ways of practices") may not necessarily be some very formal rules or rules expressed in very strict wordings, but may be some ways of doing things which have been adopted for a long time and may be very suitable. Therefore, it is a more positive and practical method which is slightly different from "議事方式", ("the way of conducting the business of the Council") which is certainly of a higher level and refers to the method of conducting all the businesses of the Council. On the other hand, the "practice" only relates to how to do something or just following the daily routine. Thus, the two are different. I hope Mr CHAN Wing-chan can understand the differences I just mentioned. I am not sure whether my explanation is clear or not.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Wing-chan, do you wish to raise any follow-up questions?

MR CHAN WING-CHAN (in Cantonese): No, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you. Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, for "consult regularly with the President" as stated under item (4), I would like to know why we have such an item. In the past, our practices were defined by the rules of procedure, and I thought that we should just follow the rules of procedure. I would like to find out about this point.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): I think this reflects that the Council is, after all, a new organization. In the course of our work, I believe we will work out a method. However, in respect of our operation, we may have to conduct frequent reviews. Of course, reviews on these procedures and rules should be conducted by the President. We should certainly consult with the President, so this item is making room and pointing out that the Working Group may follow up the matters and make frequent reviews when necessary.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I still do not quite understand why we have this item. If you refer back to item (5), it has basically stated that, if there are any procedural matters or matters to be raised, they can be referred to the Working Group for examination in accordance with the terms of reference. After the Working Group has completed examining and setting the rules, should these rules be followed strictly? Is it necessary to have item (4) regarding "consult with the President"?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Items (4) and (5) are different. The work under item (4) is of a more active nature whilst that under item (5) is more passive. Item (5) mentions that procedural matters have to be referred to by the Council or the President of the Council, or raised by members of the Working Group before being committed to Members for consideration. According to item (4), if our Working Group considers that it is necessary to examine certain matters, procedures or rules, we can take the initiative.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah, do you have any other follow-up questions?

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): I am sorry, Madam President. If that is the case, basically, when the Working Group considers it necessary to amend or review the procedures, it will be adequate for discussions to be made within the Group and it is not necessary to consult with the President to see whether such amendments should be made. I consider that rules are very important.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Item (4) actually specifies the rules of the Council to be exercised and applied by the President. When we have different opinions on certain rules or procedures, if we do not consult with the President at all, it seems that we are not comprehensively considering the relevant matters. Therefore, I believe that it is essential for us to consult with the President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to clarify the roles played by the committees and the working groups. Why does item (2) of the terms of reference only mentions the review of the committee system but not the working groups whilst item (5) only mentions "procedural matters raised by members of the Working Group" but not the committees? I would like to clarify if there is any difference between the two or is there an omission?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Items (1) and (2) are different. "the committee system of the Council" under item (2) covers all committees of the Council, including the Working Group. The Working Group has also discussed this question as to whether item (1) should be stated this way while item (2) that way since the two items are mentioning different things. Item (1) is about those organizations whilst item (2) is about the system. Therefore, these two items are a bit different. The last item mentions the matters referred to the Group. The Council include all committees and working groups. However, if Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung considers that it is better to add "committees", I do not have any objection.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO Chung-tai.

MR HO CHUNG-TAI (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I am a member of this Working Group. Concerning item (5), the English version mentions "the Working Group", that is, the procedural matters raised by members of this Working Group. To make the two versions consistent, should the sentence "或由本工作小組成員提出的程序事宜" ("or procedural matters raised by members of the working group") be added at the end of the Chinese version so that it can be clearly specified that this Working Group is concerned? Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Well, are there any other opinions so that Mrs Selina CHOW can respond to them altogether? Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): I would like to raise questions about the Chinese wordings. I propose to change the word "議" under item (2) to "究" ("probe"), that is "研究" ("study and probe"), and to change "臨時立法會" ("the Provisional Legislative Council") under item (5) to "臨立會" ("the Council"). I think these amendments are all related to consistency.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Eric LI.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, this is also a very simple proposal. As rules should be set before making any proposals, can we add "制訂" ("make") after "研究" ("study") under item (1) or (a) in the Chinese version? If we have to make corresponding amendment to the English version, will it be more appropriate for us to use "to formulate" rather than "to deliberate"? Moreover, item (a) in the English version uses "The Council", that is the abbreviated name, at the very beginning. This is different from the term as used in relation to the other committees and in the Chinese version. To achieve consistency, will it be more appropriate for "The Provisional Legislative Council" to be spelled out in full first and then followed by "The Council" in brackets? The middle part of item (b) mentions "the various stages of its work". It seems that the meanings of the wordings adopted in the Chinese and the English versions are slightly different. "在運作的不同期間" in the Chinese version refers to time whilst "various stages of its work" in the English version seems to refer to different work and procedures. Will it be more appropriate for us to amend "work" to "operation"? I propose that Mrs Selina CHOW should take the above points into consideration.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Any other opinions? Mr HO Sai-chu.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): This is also for the sake of consistency. Should we consider that the same format should be adopted for the two reports, that is, to include paragraph one at the very beginning. This is a proposal for consideration by the Working Group. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG Ching-fai.

MR NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. A simple proposal: Now that Members have mentioned corresponding wordings, why do we not amend "不同期間" under item (2) as "不同階段" so as to match with "various stages" in the English version?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Yes. Does any other Member have any opinions? If not, I would like to ask Mrs Selina CHOW to respond to the questions raised.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): I think all proposals related to drafting can be accepted. As regards the questions about wordings and the Chinese and the English versions, I will not mention them again one by one. However, we have already put them on record, including "研究及制訂" under item (1), to make the term "研究" consistent and to amend "期間" ("period") as "階段" ("stages") under item (2) , to add "委員會" under the final item and so on. I think that all these proposals can be accepted. For the format, we, of course, have not considered what kind of format would the other group adopt when drafting the motion. However, if Members consider that the format should be amended for the purpose of consistency, I will not have any objection.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Well, it seems that this also concerns wordings and format. However, according to the opinions I heard, no Members have objected to the actual terms of reference of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure. I would like to follow the way we did just now, can Members agree to this terms of reference in principle? Does anyone oppose to the actual terms of reference? Refining of wordings can be done next time. Any objections? If not, I rule that Members accept in principle the terms of reference of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure and that the Working Group can proceed to carry out its business. Do Members wish to raise any other items for discussion? Yes? Mr NG Ching-fai.

MR NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): Madam President, a very simple request. Can you formally announce who are the Convenors of the two Working Groups elected? Are the two Members who have just spoken the Convenors?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Yes, you are right.

MR NG CHING-FAI (in Cantonese): I hope that it can be more specific.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I have not formally announced that the Convenors of the Groups have been elected because they are elected by and from among members of the two Working Groups, and their election does not have to be approved again by the Council. As this is the method we have agreed on, I have not announced the result. However, I believe Members will have known this by now. I would like to ask though, if there is any Deputy Convenor? Mr IP Kwok-him.

MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have elected the Convenor and the Deputy Convenor from among members of our Working Group. I was elected the Convenor whilst Mrs Peggy LAM, the Deputy Convenor.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): I was elected the Convenor of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure whilst Miss Maria TAM, the Deputy Convenor.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you, Convenors. Another Member has just raised his hand. Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask Mrs Selina CHOW a question via you. Our Working Group is also responsible for deciding on the venue for meetings. I hope that the meetings of the Working Group can be arranged to be held in Shenzhen as far as possible, and not necessary at the Huaxia Art Centre as the closer the venue is to the railway station the better. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): I have actually heard the opinions raised by many honourable colleagues at the meeting of the Working Group held just now. I think that there is no need for Members to toil with their minds. We would try our best to make suitable arrangements after taking into account the opinions raised by members of the Group.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Good. Thank you. Any other items? Mr Frederick FUNG.

MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to make a certain proposal. I wonder if the Secretariat or the Working Group on Administrative Matters can decide the future dates of meeting and let Members know as soon as possible so that we can make arrangements to come to Shenzhen for the meetings.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Frederick FUNG, I think the dates of meeting of the Working Group on Administrative Matters should be decided by the Group itself. Are you referring to the meeting dates of the Council? The Secretariat will inform Members of such dates as soon as possible. However, I would like to take this opportunity to inform the Council that the next meeting will in principle be held on 22 March. After that, meetings are tentatively scheduled on the two Saturdays in April. In April, meetings will be held every three weeks whilst in May, there will be meetings every Saturday.

MR HENRY TANG (in Cantonese): Which two Saturdays?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Let us put it this way. From 22 March onwards, meetings will be held once every two weeks. Notices will be sent to Members in due course. Members should now note that meetings of the Council will be held on 12 April and 26 April as well as on every Saturday in May and June. Members are requested to make prior arrangements for attending the meetings. Meetings will be held if necessary, otherwise, the Secretariat will inform Members in advance. Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I think Mrs CHOW should be responsible for informing the Council that one of the items in the Agenda has not been discussed yet.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, the resolution I just proposed is related to our terms of reference and it is not a working report. As the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi has raised the point, I would also like to tell the Council that in fact, there is a lot of things that we originally intended to do, that we are allowed time to do, or are allowed to do. Therefore, we have decided to hold another meeting on next Sunday to continue with the discussion. We have not discussed about an item on our Agenda concerning the rules of the Council itself. This item would take a long time to discuss and I think that it should be set aside for discussion by the Working Group.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Thank you very much for having taken the floor one after another. I believe that Members will continue to do so in the future. However, as what we have been discussing today are merely internal matters, I rule that it is not necessary for the matters decided by Members today to be passed by resolution. However, when bills are scrutinized in the future, procedures such as resolutions, amendments as well as voting by a show of hands should be followed. I declare that the meeting is now adjourned.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes past Twelve o'clock.