OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday, 10 September 1997
The Council met at half-past Two o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT:

THE PRESIDENT
THE HONOURABLE MRS RITA FAN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE WONG SIU-YEE

THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE DAVID CHU YU-LIN

THE HONOURABLE HO SAI-CHU, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE EDWARD HO SING-TIN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND HO CHUNG-TAI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING

PROF THE HONOURABLE NG CHING-FAI

THE HONOURABLE ERIC LI KA-CHEUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE DAVID LI KWOK-PO, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE LEE KAI-MING

THE HONOURABLE ALLEN LEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SELINA CHOW, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS PEGGY LAM, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY WU

THE HONOURABLE NGAI SHIU-KIT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE HENRY TANG YING-YEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE RONALD ARCULLI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE YUEN MO

THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG HON-CHUNG

DR THE HONOURABLE MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN

DR THE HONOURABLE LEONG CHE-HUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS SOPHIE LEUNG LAU YAU-FUN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MOK YING-FAN

THE HONOURABLE HUI YIN-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHOI-HI

THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN WING-CHAN

THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM

THE HONOURABLE TSANG YOK-SING

THE HONOURABLE CHENG KAI-NAM

THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE

THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WONG WANG-FAT, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE PHILIP WONG YU-HONG

THE HONOURABLE KENNEDY WONG YING-HO

THE HONOURABLE HOWARD YOUNG, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE CHARLES YEUNG CHUN-KAM

THE HONOURABLE YEUNG YIU-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM

THE HONOURABLE CHIM PUI-CHUNG

THE HONOURABLE BRUCE LIU SING-LEE

THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH

THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE MRS MIRIAM LAU KIN-YEE, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE AMBROSE LAU HON-CHUEN, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY KAN-PUI, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHENG MING-FUN, J.P.

DR THE HONOURABLE TANG SIU-TONG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE TIMOTHY FOK TSUN-TING

THE HONOURABLE KAN FOOK-YEE

THE HONOURABLE NGAN KAM-CHUEN

THE HONOURABLE LO SUK-CHING

DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHEUNG-KWOK

THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHOY SO-YUK

MEMBERS ABSENT:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ELSIE TU, G.B.M.

THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHUN-YING, J.P.

THE HONOURABLE CHENG YIU-TONG

PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:

THE HONOURABLE MRS ANSON CHAN, J.P.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

THE HONOURABLE DONALD TSANG YAM-KUEN, J.P.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY


THE HONOURABLE ELSIE LEUNG OI-SIE, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE

MR CHAU TAK-HAY, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR BROADCASTING, CULTURE AND SPORT

MR PETER LAI HING-LING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY

MR BOWEN LEUNG PO-WING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS

MR STEPHEN IP SHU-KWAN, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES

MR KEVIN HO CHI-MING, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT

MR MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER

MR CLEMENT MAK CHING-HUNG
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS

MR GREGORY LEUNG WING-LUP, J.P.
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:
MR RICKY FUNG CHOI-CHEUNG, J.P.,
SECRETARY GENERAL

MR LAW KAM-SANG, J.P.,
DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL

MR RAY CHAN YUM-MOU,
ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
PAPERS

The following papers were laid on the table pursuant to Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:

Subject

Subsidiary LegislationL.N. No.
Securities and Futures Commission (Fees) (Amendment) Rules 1997430/97

Banking Ordinance (Amendment of Seventh Schedule) Notice 1997 431/97

Immigration (Amendment) Regulation 1997432/97

Registration of Persons (Amendment) Regulation 1997433/97

Marriage Reform (Fees) (Amendment) Regulation 1997434/97

Births Registration (Special Registers) Ordinance (Amendment of Fifth Schedule) Order 1997435/97

Deaths Registration (Special Registers) Ordinance (Amendment of Fourth Schedule) Order 1997436/97

Marriage Ordinance (Amendment of Second Schedule) Order 1997437/97

Trade Marks (Amendment) Rules 1997438/97

Child Abduction and Custody Ordinance (49 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997439/97

Building (Planning) (Amendment) Regulation 1997 (L.N. 239 of 1997) (Commencement) Notice 1997440/97


Sessional Papers

No. 7─Report by the Trustee of the Correctional Services
Children's Education Trust for the period 1 September 1995 to 31 August 1996

No.8─The Government Minute in response to the Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee dated June 1997


ADDRESSES

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Good afternoon, Members. The Chief Secretary for Administration will address the Council on the Government Minute in response to Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee dated June 1997. Chief Secretary for Administration.

The Government Minute in response to the Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee dated June 1997

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Madam President, laid on the table today is the Government Minute responding to Report No. 28 of the Public Accounts Committee. The Minute sets out the measures the Government has taken, or is planning to take, on the conclusions and recommendations contained in the Report. I do not propose to go over the Government's response on each of the subjects covered.

I am pleased to note that the Honourable Eric LI has been elected once again as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. In his capacity as the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee of the previous legislature, Mr LI spoke on 11 June this year when tabling the Report. Referring to some of the subjects covered in the Report, he made certain key observations regarding the implementation of public policy and the Government's accountability. My response to those observations is as follows:

Mr LI considered that while the Government establishes publicly-funded bodies with the objective of improving public services to the community, it is incumbent upon the Administration to ensure that the huge public resources placed under these bodies are giving good value for money. We agree with this, especially when subventions to these non-government public bodies now account for 37% of total government recurrent expenditure. However, in discharging this responsibility, we have to strike a balance between proper control of public money and allowing these publicly-funded organizations adequate flexibility in resource management. Otherwise, we may undermine the efficient and effective delivery of public services by these bodies.

In the case of departmental quarters retained by the Hospital Authority, we agree that these quarters are valuable assets which should be put to good use at all times. The inter-departmental working group set up in April this year to monitor the utilization of these quarters has made good progress. Of the 542 vacant quarters at the time, 170 have been or will be converted for non-clinical uses by the Hospital Authority, such as offices and overnight restrooms and 190 will be used for providing social welfare services or let out commercially for residential purpose. The Hospital Authority is actively looking at the future use of the rest.

Also on the operation of publicly-funded organizations, Mr LI suggested that the time has perhaps come for the Administration to take a fresh overall view of the manner in which these organizations relate to the Government and the remuneration packages they offer. In making this suggestion, Mr LI observed that while we need to ensure the proper use of public resources, we should also ensure that these publicly-funded organizations meet the situations of the modern day labour market of Hong Kong. I agree with his remarks. Publicly-funded organizations operate independently of Government and need a degree of flexibility in setting their own terms and conditions of employment.

We feel that Government should not interfere in this provided that the terms are in line with our subvention principle that the overall remuneration for staff in organizations receiving Government subventions should not be superior to those provided by Government to comparable grades in the civil service.

We share the concern of the Public Accounts Committee on the implementation of the double housing benefits. Since there are different types of publicly-funded organizations, we need first to review the criteria governing the application of the double housing benefits rules. We will then take steps to ensure that those which should be subject to the rules are implementing the rules.

On the suspension of pensions for retired civil servants in publicly-funded organizations, we note Mr LI's remarks that our existing policy on suspension of monthly pensions for retired civil servants employed in certain gazetted publicly-funded organizations may have inadvertently placed the publicly-funded organizations in a disadvantageous position when recruiting retired civil servants. We will undertake an in-depth review of the policy, having regard to its original rationale and objectives, and their relevance to present circumstances.

Finally, the Committee expressed concern over the relocation of a private cargo pier under the West Kowloon Reclamation Project only a few years after its establishment as a result of the Airport Core Programme (ACP). The ACP is the largest and most important package of infrastructure development in Hong Kong's recent history. Against an extremely tight time schedule, it is almost inevitable that its implementation would impact on other projects or planned facilities. Nevertheless, we accept the need for a fuller assessment of such potential impact on our overall planning of such major infrastructure projects and will, as a general rule, do so in future.

Madam President, I wish to express my sincere thanks to the Chairman and Members of the former Public Accounts Committee. I am sure their good work will continue in the current Public Accounts Committee under the Chairmanship of Mr LI. I look forward to Members' positive comments and sound advice, which will help the public service of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region maintain high standards of openness and accountability.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW will address the Council on the Second Progress Report of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council. Mrs Selina CHOW.

Second Progress Report of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I presented to this Council on 22 March this year the first report of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (the Working Group) since its establishment on 22 February this year. This time I am going to present the second progress report of the Working Group which has been set out in the PLC Paper No. CB(2)143 circulated to Members.

Since 22 March 1997, the Working Group has reviewed the Committee system of this Council and has completed four specific tasks. These four tasks are:
    (1) the presentation of the Chinese and English versions of the Rules of Procedure to this Council;

    (2) the drafting of the Chinese and English versions of the House Rules for the House Committee;

    (3) the drafting of the Chinese and English versions of the Finance Committee Procedure for the Finance Committee; and

    (4) the review of the Rules of Procedure and the proposal of amendments where necessary. Among the proposed amendments, the more urgent ones relate to the proceedings of the first meeting of the Council after the establishment of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region as well as the formation and operation of Panels. On behalf of the Working Group, I have moved motions under my name in June and July this year and they have been passed and adopted by the Council.
The report I present now has also set out the third batch of proposed amendments put forward by the Working Group. The Working Group agrees that I shall, on behalf of it, move motions under my name later today in this Council to endorse the amendment of some rules contained in the Rules of Procedure. Among the proposed amendments, there is the addition of Rule 74A to the Rules of Procedure governing the setting up of a "Committee on Rules of Procedure". Subsequent to the passage of this motion, I shall also move another motion on behalf of the Working Group to dissolve the Working Group on Rules of Procedure. I shall explain in detail the contents of these motions when I move them later.

Thank you, Madam President.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First question. Miss CHOY So-yuk.

1998 Legislative Council Election

1. MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, regarding the 1998 Legislative Council elections, will the Government inform this Council:
  1. of the measures the Government will adopt to publicise the arrangements with regard to the 1998 Legislative Council elections;

  2. whether the Government has undertaken any studies as to why some eligible citizens did not register as voters nor cast their votes in the last Legislative Council elections; if so, what the details are;

  3. whether the target voting rate of 50% mentioned by the Government is based on a 100% voters registration rate or the actual voters registration rate;

  4. how the Government will ensure that next year's Legislative Council elections will be free from corrupt practices, given that incidents of such practices were found in previous elections; and

  5. according to Article 26 of the Basic Law, how many groups of persons who were eligible for registration as voters in the 1995 former Legislative Council elections will become ineligible in next year's Legislative Council elections?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President,
  1. Regarding the specific arrangements for the 1998 Legislative Council elections, the Government acknowledges that there is a need to conduct extensive publicity so that voters and candidates will have a clear understanding of the election arrangements and changes. At present, our plan is that publicity will involve a number of government departments, including the Information Services Department, Radio Television Hong Kong, Home Affairs Department, Registration and Electoral Office, Home Affairs Bureau and Constitutional Affairs Bureau, while the Electoral Affairs Commission will conduct promotional activities relating to registration of electors and issue guidelines on electoral matters. Meanwhile, the Provisional Legislative Council is still examining the Legislative Council Bill. The Government will co-operate with the Electoral Affairs Commission to draw up a detailed publicity plan after the Bill is passed by the Council.

  2. Part (b) of the question asks about the willingness of the citizens to register as voters and cast their votes. In relation to Legislative Council elections in 1995, consultants were commissioned to conduct surveys on the citizens' willingness to register as voters and cast their votes. According to the survey, the reasons given for not registering as voters given by those eligible and interviewed included lack of interest in election, no knowledge on how to register and no time available.

    As regards those interviewees who had registered as voters but did not cast their votes in the election, the reasons given for not voting included no time available, not in Hong Kong on the voting day, having no satisfactory candidate, lack of knowledge about the Legislative Council or the candidates and so on.

    For the coming Legislative Council elections, we will deploy appropriate resources to conduct a full-scale voter registration exercise. In this connection, we are considering the feasibility of making door-to-door visits to encourage eligible persons to register as voters. There will also be publicity on the importance of the coming Legislative Council elections to encourage active public participation.

  3. Part (c) of the question asks about the voter turn-out rate. Generally speaking, the voter turn-out rate is calculated in terms of the number of registered voters. As to the turn-out rate of the forthcoming Legislative Council elections, no specific target number has been set. The Government will, through various effective means, encourage eligible persons to register and take an active part in voting. As regards the turn-out rate, it is of course the higher the better.

  4. Regarding the issue of honesty, the elections in Hong Kong have had a good track record of fairness and honesty. The Electoral Affairs Commission will draw up detailed guidelines to ensure that the elections are conducted in a fair, open and honest manner.

    The coming elections will continue to be subject to the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance and the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Ordinance to guarantee fairness and integrity. The Independent Commission Against Corruption will be in charge of the relevant investigations, prosecutions and community education.

  5. Part (e) of the question asks about the eligibility of voters. According to Article 26 of the Basic Law, a permanent resident of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) shall have the right to vote. The definition of a permanent resident is set out in Article 24 which is reflected in part II of Schedule 1 to the Immigration Ordinance. Under this provision, the following groups of persons, regardless of whether they were eligible voters before 1 July 1997, will no longer be qualified as eligible voters:

    1. persons who have resided in Hong Kong for seven years or more but who are not eligible to be permanent residents under the amended Immigration Ordinance. An example is the foreign domestic helpers;

    2. the second group of persons are those who are qualified as permanent residents of the SAR but who have not made an application to become such residents. Many persons not of Chinese nationality but who have ordinarily resided in Hong Kong belong to this group.
Those who are qualified as permanent residents but who have not made an application to become such residents may become eligible electors for the coming Legislative Council elections if they can establish their permanent resident status before the end of the voter registration period early next year. To do so, a person will need to apply to the Right of Abode Section of the Immigration Department for verification of eligibility for permanent resident status. The entire process would take about six weeks. I would like to take the opportunity to remind all those persons concerned to submit an early application to the Immigration Department if they wish to register as voters to take part in the elections next year.

Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHOY So-yuk.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, for the people who originally wanted to register as voters but lost their rights to vote under the provisions of Article 26 of the Basic Law, what measures will the Government take to ensure that they are removed from the voter register? Apart from finding them out when they register again or reporting the case themselves, what can the Government do to make sure that they cannot vote? There are also some cases in which the registered voters become ineligible in the sense that when they registered as voters they did not have a criminal record but then they violated the law after registration. What is the Government's view regarding people in this category?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHOY, please ask the Secretary one question first. You can raise your hand later to ask the second question.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, if the Registration and Electoral Office has reasons to believe that certain registered voters are not permanent residents, we would remind the voters in writing according to the data we have in hand. If they are qualified to apply for permanent resident status, we would remind them to do so as soon as possible. If our data show that they are not eligible for registration, we would delete their names from the voter register.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the Government's main reply, the problem of low voter turn-out rate was mentioned. Other than conducting publicity to encourage the citizens to vote, will the Government consider adopting some more innovative methods to encourage more voters to vote on the election day? For example, in the past, voters were not allowed to keep the ballot papers, but in order to increase the voter turn-out rate, can the voters be allowed to keep the ballot papers just like first-day postal covers, to mark the first elections to be held by the SAR?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, as our records show, the voter turn-out rate of the elections held in Hong Kong has been incessantly rising, but of course we shall still continue to deliberate on all means to increase the voter turn-out rate of the elections to be held next year. In this regard, we will, with reference to the findings of the survey made by the consultants commissioned in 1995 as I mentioned just now, pay particular attention to the answers of the interviewees as to why they did not register as voters or why they did register but fail to cast their votes in the elections. Focusing on the reasons they gave, we will take into account these factors when we design the modes of publicity or take other steps. One of the methods we have deliberated is to make door-to-door visits as I just mentioned, in the hope that we actually go to make home visits to conduct voter registration. In the course of this exercise, we will leave with them a lot of materials to enable them to acquire an in-depth understanding of the details of the elections in the hope of arousing their interest.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government clearly says that they will make door-to-door visits or what we insiders called "touch door registration". According to our past experiences, those people who are willing to register have already registered whereas those who are reluctant to register will not do so no matter how you urge them. Will the Government be worried that one of the following situations may arise: the first situation is that the Government is unable to increase the registration rate even though it has utterly exhausted its means; another situation is that with the rise in the registration rate, it will only drag down the voter turn-out rate?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we will work according to what we plan and we are not afraid of being utterly exhausted. As revealed by the findings of the 1995 survey, there were indeed many interviewees who indicated that they were not clear or did not know about the information. Some of them even asked if certain convenience can be provided. I believe that the door-to-door registration does provide such convenience to the citizens. This will solve the voters' problem of having to take the trouble, hence abstaining from registration. As for the problem of "if registration rate were high, the voter turn-out rate would even appear lower", we will not refrain from increasing the registration rate because of this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, a total of 10 Members have raised their hands to indicate that they would like to ask supplementary questions, so I will only allow these 10 Members to ask their supplementary questions. Mr Edward HO.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, since the voter turn-out rate has always been so low, has the Government considered enforcing mandatory voting?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, as I have mentioned just now, our voter turn-out rate has been increasing incessantly. As to mandatory voter registration or mandatory voting arrangements, we have also noticed that a few countries have adopted these measures. But after consideration, we find it difficult to implement as the time allowed for the upcoming election is too short, but we will still consider whether this method is feasible and effective.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform us the number of cases of suspected law breaking and corruption in the last Legislative Council elections, and whether the relevant investigations and follow-up actions have been completed? What specific methods will the Government take to prevent the same cases from happening in this elections again?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the information I have in hand, a total of 95 complaint cases in connection with the 1995 Legislative Council elections have been received and among which, 86 cases can be followed up. After investigation, three cases were subject to prosecution.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Eric LI.

MR ERIC LI (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the 1995 survey report that the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs has placed so much emphasis, I find one very reasonable factor, and that is, many Hong Kong citizens were out of town on the election day. Since Hong Kong is an international city, numerous people will travel abroad for business trips or study. In order to encourage them to vote, has the Government considered implementing overseas voting, or allowing the people who have sufficient reasons to leave Hong Kong on the election day to vote one day ahead under confidential covers?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have considered doing so but we will not make such arrangements for the time being.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HUI Yin-fat.

MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, can the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs tell us when the Government plans to start the voter registration exercise? Will the voter registration for the geographical constituency and functional constituency be held at the same time?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to the present schedule, we will conduct the voter registration exercise from December this year to mid-January next year. All kinds of registration will be simultaneously conducted.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG Leung-sing.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, just now in the Government's reply to Miss CHOY So-yuk, the publicity and promotion of the specific arrangements for the 1998 Legislative Council elections were mentioned at the very beginning, and it was also said that the purpose of which was to enable voters and candidates to have a clear understanding of the election arrangements and changes. I would like to ask if these changes are brought about because the 1998 elections, held after the establishment of the SAR, are different from the 1995 elections? Besides, in the light of these changes, can the Government provide this Council and the public with a comparison table to enable them to have a clearer picture of the elections?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the specific details, arrangements and changes I mentioned earlier of course include the changes as compared with the arrangements of the last Legislative Council elections, and the form of voting is also included. The Honourable Member has advanced a very good proposal. We will consider compiling a comparison table to be distributed not only to this Council, but also to the press. Or else, we can also publish leaflets. This is a very good idea too.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHOY So-yuk.

MISS CHOY SO-YUK (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs mentioned that about $400 million will be spent on voter registration and, out of this sum of money, a few tens of millions of dollars will be used as travelling expenses for door-to-door visits. Apart from these tens of millions of dollars, how will the remaining $300-odd million be allocated?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the figure mentioned by Miss CHOY is only our estimated figure. The specific figure will of course have to be approved by the Provisional Legislative Council. According to our present schedule, a quarter of the money will be spent on publicity, while the rest will be spent on making election arrangements, postal charges, increase of manpower, purchase of computer facilities and so on.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I heard just now that the voter turn-out rate has been increasing constantly, has the Government forecast the voter turn-out rate of the 1998 elections?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have said just now that we have not set a specific target. But the goal we are working towards is no matter whether it is the voter turn-out rate or registration rate, it is always the higher the better. Of course, we definitely hope to achieve better than before.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs said that a full-scale voter registration exercise would be conducted for the 1998 elections, which is a measure I fully agree and support. In the past, the political parties of many candidates would conduct registration for the citizens beforehand. After conducting door-to-door visits to secure the citizens' information, they would call up the voters and lobby them to vote for the candidates concerned. As the Government said that it will conduct a full-scale voter registration and actively make door-to-door visits this time, will it still allow individuals to conduct voter registration on their own?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the door-to-door visits I mentioned just now is only one of the ways. We will of course use the old registration methods we have been using.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, Mrs LAM's question is: will individuals be allowed to conduct voter registration before the Government registers the citizens?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Voter registration should be done by the Government. Let me answer the question directly: ordinary citizens are not allowed to make home visits for voter registration.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have some queries about the two answers given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs just now. I find them misleading. Just now ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam, please ask your question. You should not express your personal opinion now.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): I ask my question now. Should the citizens be allowed to register as voters on any one of the 365 days in a year instead of being restricted to a certain period?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): The answer is "yes". The citizens can fill out forms and mail them back to us.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHENG Kai-nam, are you going to follow up the answer given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs?

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Yes. I think that we should strengthen publicity for all Hong Kong citizens. Since 1985, we, the people who have been involved in election work, found that many citizens are still unclear about this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What was your question?

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Can the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs reinforce the work in this aspect?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, yes, we can.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to follow up Miss CHOY's question about fairness just now. Would the Government inform us whether there are organizations in the functional constituency that do not conform to the 12-months requirement? If so, will those organizations be deleted from Schedules 1 and 2 to prevent affecting the representativeness of the functional constituency?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, the problem concerning the 12-month requirement mentioned by the Honourable Member earlier has been clearly set out in the Bill. If we know that there are organizations which fail to meet this requirement and if the relevant provisions in the Bill are passed, then those organizations will of course be deleted.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM, I know that you want to raise a supplementary question. In fact, Members are all very concerned about this issue and I believe Members have a lot of proposals and opinions regarding the former voter registrations. So I would like to suggest Members to discuss these problems in the meetings of the Panel concerned.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, point of order.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, though I have some queries about this question, I do not want to stop Members from expressing their views. However, does that mean that you, Madam President, has decided to give up the principle of prohibiting deliberation upon matters in anticipation? This is because the Bill is still under scrutiny, but the part about voter registration is already being questioned Dealing with things by way of Questions is a weaker way, while by way of Bills is the strongest. I hope that we could be given clear and definite instructions. If the principle does not exist anymore, does it mean that we can raise a question whenever we like? I hope you, Madam President, can rule on this.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): My ruling is that this question can be raised because the question is not entirely identical with the Bill. Moreover, voter registration is an administrative measure adopted after the passage of the Bill. I believe Mr Andrew WONG should have a thorough understanding on this point. If Members have opinions about this matter, I hope Members can follow up in the Panel concerned. I have already given the ruling, so I do not wish to see Members discuss it anymore here. But if there are points of order, Members may raise them again.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I want to follow up the point of order. My view is that since the Bill has already included voter registration, so the Bill has touched on the scope of Miss CHOY So-yuk's question. I find this questionable. If you think this is purely a technical problem whereas Miss CHOY So-yuk's question is entirely about information, then the scope involved by subsequent supplementary questions basically should not be so extensive. This is my opinion. So, can this question be allowed? The answer may be negative. This has to be ruled by the President. However, the scope of the subsequent supplementary questions should definitely come under a great constraint and cannot be stretched too wide. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, I have already made a ruling. If Members have different views regarding my ruling, I welcome discussions to be held outside the meeting. But we are now holding a meeting and time is very precious. I hope we can proceed with the Questions. Mrs Peggy LAM, is it a point of order? I have ruled just now that this issue has already been discussed repeatedly, no more supplementary question is therefore allowed. I would like to call upon Members to discuss about it in the Panel concerned.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, what I mean is the answer given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs just now was self-contradictory and I would like to point out the contradiction.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions do not serve such a function. If you want to point out his contradiction, you should follow up the matter in the Panel concerned.

Next question. Mrs Peggy LAM.

Woman Health Centres

2.MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): With regard to the woman health centres in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council of:
  1. the total number of such centres at present;

  2. the services provided by such centres and their operating hours;

  3. the average attendance at these centres in each of the past three years; and

  4. the average waiting time for a consultation appointment at these centres?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President,
  1. The Department of Health (DH) currently operates three Woman Health Centres, which are located in Lam Tin, Chai Wan and Tuen Mun respectively. In addition to these centres, some voluntary organizations and medical institutions, such as The Family Planning Association of Hong Kong and the Tung Wah Group of Hospitals, also provide similar physical check-up services for women.

  2. Services provided by DH's Woman Health Centres include health education and counselling, physical examination and laboratory investigations. The centres are open from 9.00 am to 1.00 pm and from 2.00 pm to 5.00 pm on Mondays to Fridays, and from 9.00 am to 1.00 pm on Saturdays.

  3. The three Woman Health Centres of DH were opened in May 1994, March 1996 and March 1997 respectively. Since the first centre opened in 1994, the total number of attendances for consultation at these three centres up to end-July 1997 is 20 985. From May to December 1994, the number of attendances was 2 310. In 1995 and 1996, the number was 4 496 and 7 781 respectively. During the period from January to end-July 1997, the number was 6 398. These figures do not include the number of attendances for health education talks and related activities.

  4. The average waiting time for the first attendance for consultation at DH's Woman Health Centres is about two weeks.
Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary for Health and Welfare's reply shows that such preventive check-ups and laboratory investigations are very much welcomed by the women in Hong Kong. Unfortunately, the Government has only managed to open one such clinic in Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories respectively in the past three years. This is grossly inadequate indeed. Will the Government plan to set up more clinics of this kind in various districts in the coming years?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, two of the three Women Health Centres of the DH were only opened last year and this year respectively. We will pay attention to the citizens' needs and decide whether more such centres are needed after conducting reviews. Besides, as what I said just now, some voluntary organizations and medical institutions also provide this kind of physical check-up services at reasonable prices. Of course, private clinics and hospitals provide similar services too. If women suspect that they have contracted such kinds of disease, they can always seek help from the DH's out-patient departments as well as maternal and child health centres.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Howard YOUNG.

MR HOWARD YOUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the figures supplied in paragraph (c) of the Secretary for Health and Welfare's main reply show that, in 1996 and the first half of 1997, the average monthly number of women using this kind of centres has increased by 73% and 71% respectively. I would like to ask the Government whether the increase in the facilities provided by the Government have not matched with the citizens' actual needs for such health centres, so that the supply falls short of demand?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, I believe one of the major reasons for the increase in the rate of utilization is that one more Woman Health Centre has gone into operation this year. In the light of our experience, this kind of centres is still capable of attracting more users. The average waiting time for consultation now is only two weeks, whereas the waiting time at the newest Tuen Mun Woman Health Centre is even shorter.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO Sai-chu.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Madam President, at present, there are only three such centres throughout Hong Kong. In other words, only one such centre is operating in Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories respectively. The New Territories has a bigger population, but only one such centre is being operated in Tuen Mun. I would like to ask the Government whether it should consider setting up one more centre in the New Territories?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the centre set up by the Government at Tuen Mun, New Territories, was only brought into service in March this year. We need more time to observe the citizens' demands in this respect and the quantity of services that other service providers can provide before making a decision.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA Fung-kwok.

MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to know how large is the scale of a Woman Health Centre at present; how much manpower is needed; how much in expenses is estimated to be needed each year; what services are provided; and how much does it charge the patients?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, one such centre needs about seven to 10 staff members, including doctors and nurses. It mainly provides service in the following three areas: firstly, to provide health education and counselling, explaining and promoting ghealthy lifestyles through lectures and discussions, as well as teaching the participants methods of self-examination, knowledge of menopause, ways to prevent cancers and diseases such as osteoporosis; secondly, to provide physical check-ups, including measuring weight, height and blood pressure, heart and chest examinations, as well as breast and pelvic examinations; thirdly, to conduct laboratory tests, which are mainly urine tests and cervical cytoscopy. If the patients have special needs, the centres will carry out other examinations, such as blood test, electrocardiograph, X-ray and so on.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Sophie LEUNG.

MRS SOPHIE LEUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, we can see from the Secretary for Health and Welfare's reply that the soaring number indicates clearly that women, especially those who have passed the middle age, are very concerned about their own physical health. Will the Health and Welfare Bureau consider formulating policies to encourage private bodies or organizations which are financially self-supporting to operate more health centres of this kind?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government welcomes any private organization to take part in providing this kind of preventive health services.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HUI Yin-fat.

MR HUI YIN-FAT (in Cantonese): Can the Secretary for Health and Welfare tell us whether the Government has conducted any publicity to particularly introduce the newly-arrived women immigrants to the services provided by these Woman Health Centres? If so, what is the ratio of the newly-arrived women immigrants to local women in utilizing the facilities? If the Secretary for Health and Welfare does not have such information at hand, a written reply afterwards will also suffice.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, the DH introduces the Woman Health Centres and the services provided by putting up posters, distributing publicity pamphlets, setting up telephone hotlines and visiting women organizations and district boards in various districts. As regards new immigrants, every new immigrant arriving at the Hong Kong border would receive a pamphlet published by the Home Affairs Department. The pamphlet will introduce the woman health services provided in Hong Kong, focusing on services provided by the Family Planning Association as well as the maternal and child health centres. Therefore, the immigrants should know where to go and what kind of services they can get. As to the rate of utilization, we do not have the data at hand right now.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEONG Che-hung.

DR LEONG CHE-HUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, as other Honourable colleagues say, "prevention is always better than cure", so the Woman Health Centres do have an important role to play. Would the Government inform us if a woman is found to have a health problem in such a centre, does the Government have adequate facilities to give treatment to her without delay, especially when the Hospital Authority recently indicated that there was a constant inadequacy of manpower?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Health and Welfare.

SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Madam President, if a woman goes for a check-up in a Woman Health Centre and the doctor there suspects that she needs to undergo further in-depth examinations or even treatment whereas that kind of service is not available in the Centre, the doctor would refer her to a specialist clinic under the Hospital Authority for treatment. These specialist clinics have now adopted a triage system. In other words, subject to the information provided by the doctor who made the referral, if a patient is considered to be in a serious condition, the clinic will accord priority to the case to enable the patient to receive treatment without delay.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third question. Mr Kennedy WONG.

Efficiency of Cross-border Immigration Control


3.MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): In view of the continued growth in the demand for sea, land and air transport as a result of the increasingly close links between Hong Kong and the Mainland following reunification, will the Government inform this Council:
  1. whether consideration will be given to extending the operating hours of the checkpoints at Man Kam To, Huanggang and other piers concerned, so as to facilitate cross-border transportation of travellers and goods;

  2. whether it will discuss with the relevant departments in the Mainland with a view to enhancing the efficiency of the immigration service and streamlining the immigration procedures, through such measures as integrating the immigration departments of Hong Kong and the Mainland as well as replacing Re-entry Permits with the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) identity documents for entering the Mainland; and

  3. given that the new airport is due to open next April and will operate round the clock, whether arrangements will be made with the relevant departments in the Mainland to increase the number of flights between Hong Kong and the Mainland, so that cross-border transportation of travellers and goods can be arranged more flexibly?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President,

  1. The opening hours of the road checkpoints at Man Kam To, Sha Tau Kok and Lok Ma Chau were last reviewed in 1994. At that time, the Man Kam To and Lok Ma Chau Crossings were open from 7.00 am to 10.00 pm while the Sha Tau Kok Crossing was open from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm. Following the review, the opening hours of Lok Ma Chau Border Crossing have since November 1994 been extended to 24 hours each day to spread the flow of traffic and to match the 24-hour opening of container terminals in Kwai Chung. We have been closely monitoring the traffic volume of the Man Kam To Crossing to see if it is necessary to extend its operating hours.

    On the Sha Tau Kok Crossing, we are discussing with the Guangdong authorities about a proposal to extend the opening hours for two more hours, that is to say, from 7.00 am to 6.00 pm to 7.00 am to 8.00 pm.

    We are also closely monitoring the traffic volume at the above boundary crossings and the Lo Wu Crossing and will review their capacity as well as operating hours from time to time to ensure a smooth flow of passengers and goods.

    As regards the operation of piers, there are two Ferry Terminals, namely the China Ferry Terminal and the Macau Ferry Terminal, with passenger vessels going to and from mainland China. The operating hours of the former is from 6.00 am to 10.00 pm while the latter is round the clock. The existing operating hours for the China Ferry Terminal is sufficient to cope with the present demand and hence we do not have any intention to further extend the operating hours of the China Ferry Terminal for the time being.

    For cargo vessels arriving by sea, immigration, port health and customs clearance are already available 24 hours a day.

  2. We are conscious of the need to enhance efficiency of the Immigration Service and streamline procedures to facilitate ease of travel between Hong Kong and the Mainland, but without compromising the integrity of our immigration control. To this end, we have maintained close liaison with the Mainland authorities. However, under the Basic Law, the exercise of immigration control on entry into, stay in and departure from Hong Kong is a matter within the autonomy of the SAR. There is, therefore, no question of "integrating" the Immigration Department of the SAR with the corresponding department in the Mainland, or any form of joint immigration clearance.

    Most Hong Kong residents travel to the Mainland with a Home Visit Permit issued by the Mainland authorities, and a Hong Kong Identity Card. A Hong Kong Re-entry Permit is required in respect of children under the age of 11 and those who have lost their Identity Cards. We are not aware of any plans on the part of Mainland authorities to dispense with the Home Visit Permit, although we believe they are considering improvements to the Home Visit Permit system.

  3. At present there are substantial air services between Hong Kong and the Mainland. We have a total of about 350 round-trip flights with the Mainland every week. With the increasing links between Hong Kong and the Mainland, passenger and goods traffic will likely continue to grow. The matter will be pursued between the authorities concerned in the light of market demand and the opportunities that will arise with the opening of the new airport at Chek Lap Kok.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in parts (a), (b) and (c) of the main reply given by the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, the word, "we", referring to relevant departments of the Government, has been mentioned many times. In addition, public officers responsible for answering this question include the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs, the Secretary for Transport, the Secretary for Security and the Secretary for Economic Services. In other words, the co-ordination of four policy bureaux is needed in order to to provide an answer to this question. Since cross-border transportation between Hong Kong and the Mainland has now become a matter of public concern while many Government departments are involved, for the sake of enhancing efficiency, will the Government consider setting up an inter-departmental working group to co-ordinate and motivate the arrangements?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have already done so. To cope with the different nature of problems, the Government would set up groups for liaison of work internally. Subject to the variety of the problems, different departments will take charge in dealing with them.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung.

MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, 24-hour immigration clearance service is not available right now for transportation of travellers by land. Will the Government review the relevant measures and provide 24-hour immigration services for traffic by land?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will reply? Please tell me which of your colleagues will reply?

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): I would like to invite the Secretary for Security to reply.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to the opening hours at each checkpoint, we would always pay attention to the needs of passenger and goods traffic, and would consider and study ways of improvement with the relevant departments in the Mainland. Of course, we all know that in addition to goods traffic, coaches also travel between Hong Kong and Mainland China. We have 24-hour immigration clearance service at the Lok Ma Chau Border Crossing for the transportation of goods right now, but such service is not available at other checkpoints.

As for the transportation of travellers, we have the general impression that the demand for travellers crossing the border so late at night is not too great. In the meantime, we should not forget that no matter to what time the checkpoints are extended, the Customs and Excise Department and the Immigration Department will certainly need to deploy manpower to provide services, while the checkpoints of Shenzhen also need to consider whether sufficient resources are available. Under the present circumstances, it will necessitate deployment of enormous resources if we extend the operating hours of immigration clearance service for travellers to 24 hours at a certain checkpoint, but will the effect be that much; or would it be more effective if we use the same amount of resources to set up more checkpoints in the daytime?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government has not answered Mr CHEUNG Hon-chung's question, in particular the part on the Lo Wu Crossing. Basically, the Lo Wu Crossing opens at 7.00 am at present. This is very inconvenient to the people who have to go to primary schools or factories in Hong Kong and has become the source of considerable public grievances. Even if the Lo Wu Crossing cannot operate round the clock, could the Government discuss with the government officials concerned in the Mainland about opening it one hour earlier?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to immigration clearance, we will of course keep on making improvement by extending the opening hours and increasing manpower. If we identify such a need and resources are available to us and the Mainland to cope with the need, we can of course take this opinion into consideration. However, we do not have plans to do so at the moment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Miriam LAU.

MRS MIRIAM LAU (in Cantonese): Madam President, although the Lok Ma Chau Crossing is operated round the clock now, as far as I know, the number of vehicles crossing the border at night, especially in the small hours of the morning, is in fact relatively low. Will the Government inform this Council whether it is aware of the reasons behind it, and whether it has reviewed this problem with the relevant authorities in the Mainland? Has the Government adopted any measure to encourage more vehicles to cross the border at night in order to relieve traffic congestion in the daytime?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Transport.

SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT (in Cantonese): Madam President, we are also aware that less vehicles use the Lok Ma Chau Crossing at night, and we believe this is because the need for traffic flow in the daytime is greater. Besides, the provision of night-time immigration clearance service has only been put in place for a few years. Since it was launched, there has already been an uprising trend in the traffic volume at night. But up to the present moment, the need to cross the border at night is after all much fewer than that in the daytime.

We do not have the detailed information at hand as to why the night-time traffic volume is much less than that of the daytime. From the viewpoint of controlling traffic flow, we of course hope that the traffic flow can be more evenly spread out during the opening hours of the crossings. However, the time to cross the border will eventually be decided by the drivers and their routings. If in future, we can identify measures to encourage the drivers to use the checkpoints at off-peak hours, we will definitely do so.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, the public officers still have not answered Mr Kennedy WONG's question. Mr WONG asked that since many bureaux, including the Constitutional Affairs Bureau, the Transport Bureau and the Security Bureau, are involved, should the Government consider setting up an inter-bureau working group? I hope the three Secretaries of the relevant policy bureaux concerned will give us a reply.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, as I mentioned just now, there would be sufficient liaison among different government departments to cope with the requirements of our work. Liaison as such is part of our daily work and we do not find it necessary to formalize it by setting up a working group before we can improve our communication.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in part (c) of the Government's reply, it is mentioned that the departments concerned in Hong Kong and the Mainland will discuss about increasing the domestic flight service between the two places. Will the Government inform us whether it has a timetable in this respect? As is known to all, the new airport will be formally opened in eight months' time. What are the timetable and targets of the Government in this respect?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Economic Services.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, the new airport is scheduled to be opened in April next year. The time for both parties to discuss arrangements for the domestic flight service will be subject to market demand. If there is a rise in the demand from industry, trade and tourism for increasing the number of flights, the relevant authorities in Hong Kong and Mainland China will of course conduct discussions. If the market has identified such a need, consultation will definitely be held between the two sides.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, as regards the immigration clearance service for both passengers and goods, the Hong Kong Government has done a lot and the waiting time is not too long. Very often, however, while we may open eight or 10 lanes for service during rush hours, the Chinese side only open two or three lanes, and congestion is thus caused. Given that we will communicate with the relevant authorities in the Mainland from time to time, could the Hong Kong Government do something in this respect to enable the immigration clearance service of Hong Kong to be provided at an acceptable speed and ensure that the Chinese side can also cope with the needs for immigration clearance in respect of passenger and goods traffic?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, in case of needs, we can discuss these issues with the Shenzhen checkpoint through the established channels.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to follow up the question I raised just now because it seems that the Government has not answered whether there is a timetable. Will the Government tell us whether there is a timetable for its relevant departments to discuss with their counterparts in the Mainland about increasing the number of domestic flights?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Economic Services.

SECRETARY FOR ECONOMIC SERVICES (in Cantonese): Madam President, generally speaking, if our airlines or Mainland airlines think that there is a need to enhance air services, increase the number of flights or make other changes such as altering the destinations, the Governments on both sides will of course negotiate. Therefore, when I replied Mr Kennedy WONG's question a moment ago, I said if such needs arise in the future, the airlines will naturally contact the Government and we will consult with the relevant departments in the Mainland about these issues. For this reason, we would not fix a definite timetable for increasing the number of flights for the time being. All arrangements about air services are, in fact, dependent upon market demand.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, when I raised the question just now, I hoped that all of the Secretaries concerned would give a response. However, the Secretary for Constitutional Affairs opined that there is no need to set up an inter-departmental or inter-bureau working group. Do the other Secretaries think the same way too? It seems that the Secretary for Economic Services is very passive as he said that he will only take the issues into consideration when the airlines raise them. Will the Economic Services Bureau itself pay attention to the issue?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which of the Secretaries will reply on behalf of the others? It would be unreasonable for each and every Secretary to rise and make a response. Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would view it this way: with regard to our daily work, there is a close link between Government departments. In case of needs, we would convene departmental meetings, or the so-called working group meetings, on a certain subject. Generally, a certain Department will take the initiative to convene such meetings.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am a bit disappointed at the Secretary for Security's reply just now. At present the border opens at 7.00 am, but the students have to go to school at 7.30 am and the workers have to be back at the factories at 8.00 am. What could they do? The Secretary said that there is no need to make it earlier, why does he think so? Could the Secretary conduct a more serious review and study and give this Council a reply within a certain period of time?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Security.

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Madam President, we do not have such a plan at the moment. I want to reiterate that with regard to the issue of border-crossing, the flow of passenger traffic is rather huge, so that there are demands from various sectors. However, our resources are limited at any one time. When resources are available, we have to weigh and decide: should we inject the new resources or additional resources for setting up more immigration counters during rush hours so as to speed up the flow of traffic at the border and facilitate more people; or should we extend the opening hours until very early in the morning or late at night but less people will be benefited? On a balance of the pros and cons, we think that we had better inject our resources mainly into providing more counters at the time when the flow of passenger and goods traffic is relatively high.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, I think it is almost time for us to end this question now. I know Members are not necessarily satisfied with certain replies, so I suggest once again that Members may follow up the matter in the relevant Panels.

Fourth question. Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

Employment of Fresh Graduates of Colleges of Education

4.DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): It is reported that the ratio between the number of applicants registered for teaching posts and the number of teachers' vacancies in primary and secondary schools this year is the highest in six years. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council:
  1. of the employment situation of fresh graduates of the Colleges of Education, particularly the data in respect of the following:

    1. the number of fresh graduates this year;

    2. the number of teachers' vacancies in primary and secondary schools this year;

    3. an up-to-date breakdown of the unsuccessful applicants for teaching posts according to the subjects in which they have been trained;

    4. whether the Administration has any plans to assist fresh graduates of the Colleges of Education in securing teaching posts; if so, what the details are; if not, why not; and


  2. whether the Administration has any plans to reduce the number of students in each class in primary and secondary schools; if so, what the details are and when the plans will come into effect?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, according to information of the Education Department's Teacher Recruitment Information Service (TRIS), from the period 24 March to 5 September 1997, the total number of intending teachers who have registered an interest in teaching jobs, and the number of vacancies registered by schools were 4 181 and 294 respectively. I would like to stress here that the 294 vacancies only reflect cases where schools wished to seek the assistance of the TRIS in recruitment. It does not represent the full picture of vacancies this year as aided and private schools are free to conduct their own teacher recruitment through other channels, including advertisements in newspapers. Indeed, the total number of teaching vacancies in both primary and secondary schools this year stood at 3 000. Of these, about 1 980 were non-graduate teacher posts, which are suitable for appointment of graduates of the Hong Kong Institute of Education (HKIEd).

Against this background, my answer to the various parts of Dr the Honourable Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin's question is as follows:
  1. Regarding the employment situation of fresh graduates of the HKIEd:

    1. There were 693 graduates of the Certificate of Education (Primary) course and 434 graduates of the Certificate of Education (Secondary) course in the 1996-97 academic year;

    2. There were about 1 650 teaching vacancies in primary schools this year, of which 1 580 were non-graduate posts; and 1 350 vacancies in secondary schools, of which about 400 were non-graduate posts. The total number of non-graduate teacher vacancies therefore was about 1 980 this year;

    3. The HKIEd conducted a preliminary survey on the employment situation of its fresh graduates on 5 August to 20 August 1997. Of the 738 respondents, 185 (around 25%) were still searching for jobs. Of these 185 graduates, only 179 have given information on their respective elective subjects. Briefly, of the 111 job seeking Certificate of Education (Primary) graduates, a broad picture of the elective subjects they took is as follows: 56 (around 50%) Social Studies, 16 (around 14%) English, 13 (around 12%) Art and Craft, and 10 (around 9%) Science. Of the 68 job-seeking Certificate of Education (Secondary) graduates, 31 (around 46%) were trained in Chinese/Chinese History, 11 (around 16%) in English, 6 (around 9%) in Mathematics and 4 (around 6%) in Geography. The rest took various other subjects which do not fall into any particular pattern.

      It should be noted that for the Certificate of Education (Primary) course, students are trained in a core curriculum consisting of three subjects including Chinese, Mathematics and General Studies, plus a fourth subject which is an elective. For the Certificate of Education (Secondary) course, each student is trained in two elective subjects.


  2. In order to help intending teachers find jobs, the Education Department operates a TRIS every year. Those interested in finding a teaching job can directly register their personal details and academic qualifications with the TRIS, which are put into a computer data bank and will be followed up. This service has been provided to HKIEd students. Aided and private schools with vacancies can obtain information about intending teachers through the TRIS and directly contact them for interview. However, as I said just now, aided and private schools are free to conduct their own teacher recruitment without going through the TRIS or the Education Department.

    The Student Affairs Office of HKIEd also provides employment service to its students. Letters were sent to all principals in Hong Kong early this year requesting information on teaching vacancies and the information collected was subsequently made available to students. To assist graduates who are still searching for jobs, the Student Affairs Office is continuing its effort to seek the latest information and to contact the educational and relevant social service organizations, with a view to providing the graduates concerned with up-to-date job messages.

  3. To improve the quality of teaching and learning in schools, in the 1993-94 school year, the Government has reduced the number of pupils per class for Primary One level to 35 for traditional classes and to 30 for those adopting the activity approach. This has since been extended to other levels. In the 1997-98 school year, the reduction in class size is being extended to Primary Five. It must be stressed that the prime objective of smaller classes is to enhance the quality of teaching and learning in schools, not to tackle the supply and demand situation of teachers.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr TSO WONG Man-yin.

DR TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to ask the Government, given that a substantial number of new immigrants have arrived in Hong Kong and the class sizes have kept shrinking, why are there still so many graduates of colleges of education unemployed? It we look at this phenomenon from the perspective of supply and demand, it is comparatively incomprehensible. On the other hand, it is reported that as qualified teachers are insufficient, the Government has considered recruiting overseas qualified teachers. What are the factors leading to this situation?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I trust the problem we have this year is only a short-term one and it can be solved. We have reasons to believe that this is a very special year in which many of the newly recruited teachers are emigrants returning from abroad. Moreover, in view of the favourable situation in Hong Kong as at present, a lot of teachers have decided not to apply for early retirement. Figures show that the wastage rate of teachers has dropped prominently this year. For example, the wastage rate of teachers in 1991 was as high as 10.6%. It was 8.7% in 1994 and dropped to 6.2% - 6.7% last year. The situation has apparently been stablized.

With the fall in one aspect and the rise in another, graduates will naturally face more competitions when they look for jobs. This is the first problem, but we believe this phenomenon will be short-lived. Why are we able to say so with confidence? This is because with the increase in the number of new immigrant students, coupled with a bid to tie in with the future development of whole-day schooling in primary schools, and to improve teaching qualities, it is estimated that more than a thousand teaching posts will be created in the coming four years. Dr TSO WONG Man-yin's second question mentioned the importation of foreign teachers. We have clarified this point earlier in the University Grants Committee (UGC). The Chief Executive announced in his inaugural speech that, in the foreseeable future, all newly recruited primary and secondary school teachers ought to be university graduates and should have received teacher's training. In this respect, the UGC has consented, on the invitation of the Education and Manpower Bureau, to study how the proposal can be implemented and assess the proposal's financial impact on education as a whole. Since at the present stage the relevant work is still underway, any talk about the importation of expatriate teachers is a mere guess. The UPC will present the report and proposal to the Education and Manpower Bureau as well as the Chief Executive early next year.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council how the Administration calculates the number of new teaching posts needed each year by all primary and secondary schools in general? If there is any miscalculation which leads to supply falling short of demand or vice versa, how is the Administration going to make remedies?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Education Department will conduct a teacher survey in each school every year between September and October after the school term begins. While the information obtained is used as data for planning, the Education Department will also provide the HKIEd with information on supply and demand of teaching posts every year. The HKIEd will also keep close contact with the Education Department and make suitable adjustments whenever necessary, especially in the number of new students recruited, and it is, therefore, fairly flexible.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, while the return of emigrated teachers have made it difficult for the prospective teachers to find jobs, could the prospective teachers really apply what they have learned in the curriculum offered by the HKIEd for teaching purposes? Has the Government considered reviewing the overall development of the HKIEd? Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as what I said earlier, since the Chief Executive has announced as the target of his policy that, in the foreseeable future, newly recruited teachers of secondary and primary schools should all be university graduates and should have received teacher training, we are currently making a comprehensive review and formulating the direction for the future development of the HKIEd. This is very vital, the impact of which is far reaching. This is because, in general, the students trained by the HKIEd at present are mostly non-graduate teachers. Regarding the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung's question as to whether the Government would review the curriculum, our answer is positive. In fact, I had met with the Director of Education and the Principal of the HKIEd in the past few days to study whether the recruitment of new students and the selection of subjects should be conducted in a stricter manner. This is because a lot of students would otherwise take easier elective subjects such as Chinese, Chinese History or Social Studies, leading to an oversupply of teachers in certain subjects. We hope to encourage students to take more cultural subjects such as domestic science, physical education, music, art and craft and so on, with a view to achieving a balanced development.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): I wonder if the Government could give us a timetable stating how many years it will take to really get it done?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, this important issue is under serious deliberation at the moment. While we will speed up our pace, but the timetable will be published later in due course.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TSANG Yok-sing.

MR TSANG YOK SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council what will impact the future whole-day schooling make on the ratio between the number of teachers and students in primary schools and on the demand and supply of teachers?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we reckon that there will definitely be improvements in the ratio between the number of teachers and students. If whole-day schooling is to be implemented, we roughly estimate that we will need an addition of 100-odd new teachers, and the ratio will be improved gradually from 1.3 to 1.5.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council whether the future review of the training of certificated teachers mentioned by the Secretary just now will be a comprehensive review, which includes reviewing the exact roles the universities are now playing in training certificated teachers, rather than being restricted to reviewing how the HKIEd establish its certificating standards?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, this is a very good question. The UGC is now carrying out a comprehensive review which is not restricted to the HKIEd. This is because the University of Hong Kong, the Chinese University of Hong Kong, the Open University of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Baptist University are all offering teacher training programmes, in particular degree courses and postgraduate courses. Therefore, our review this time is an all-rounded and comprehensive one.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Fifth question. Mr James TIEN.

Publicizing Current Labour Legislation

5.MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Recently, many employers have indicated that they do not quite understand the contents and implications of the various labour-related Ordinances passed by the former Legislative Council ─ such as the various Employment (Amendment) Ordinances, as well as the Ordinances relating to occupational safety and health and anti-discrimination ─ and that this may easily result in their contravening labour legislation inadvertently. In view of this, will the Government inform this Council whether the relevant government departments have any specific plans to explain to the industrial and commercial sectors the contents and implications of these new legislation; if not, whether the Government will take corresponding measures as soon as possible so as to assist the industrial and commercial sectors in understanding the contents and implications of the new legislation?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, as has been the practice for many years, the Labour Department organizes a wide variety of promotional activities to publicize any newly enacted labour-related legislation or amendments to existing legislation. The main targets are employers, personnel practitioners and representatives from trade unions.

The Labour Department has already stepped up its publicity efforts for the several important pieces of labour legislation that were passed by the former Legislative Council in the past few months. For example, to promote the awareness and understanding of the new Occupational Safety and Health Ordinance (OSHO) and the major amendments to the Employment Ordinance (EO), the Labour Department has:
    - printed over half a million copies of information leaflets on various topics of the new legislation or amendments for distribution at Labour Department's offices and, more importantly, for direct mailing to employers' associations, trade unions and concerned parties;

    - launched two radio/TV Announcements of Public Interest on the subject of OSHO and conducted six radio/TV interviews on the recent amendments to the EO;

    - organized seven seminars and 20 briefings on the legislative changes for over 3 000 employers or their representatives and representatives from trade unions;

    - publicized the newly-enacted legislative provisions in the Labour Department's newsletter Labour Focus and the first two issues of Occupational Safety and Health Bulletin. To conduct a comprehensive "carpet" publicity, copies of the two publications have been sent to all employers with five or more employees by direct mail; and

    - responded to, in past three months alone, over 630 000 calls including those on labour legislation through its General Enquiry Telephone Service.
Apart from the above, the Department is planning to organize a series of activities to promote the new Occupational Safety and Health Regulation (OSHR), which will come into effect later this year. These will include a major seminar for the retail, banking/financial services and education sectors and a series of guide books on various housekeeping and fire prevention topics for the non-industrial sectors. The Occupational Safety and Health Council has been working hand in hand with the Labour Department on many such activities. The Council has also been promoting the OSHO and the OSHR in its publication Green Cross and in many of its own public events and promotional activities. For instance, the OSHO will be the main theme in the Council's major annual event, namely the Occupational Safety and Health Week, to be held in October this year. The Council has also organized a series of training courses, for instance, courses on manual handling operation, to tie in with the introduction of the OSHO and OSHR. As for the recent amendments to the EO, the Department will organize a major seminar with around 500 participants and launch a radio programme with Radio Television Hong Kong by the end of this year.

With regard to the Sex Discrimination Ordinance and the Disability Discrimination Ordinance, the Equal Opportunities Commission has also organized a series of education and promotion programmes including the publication of Code of Practices on Employment, Good Management Practice Series and newsletters, and the organization of talks and seminars for business and employers' organizations. These activities aim to familiarize the employers and employees with their rights and obligations under these two Ordinances.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. First of all, I would like to thank the Secretary for having done so much work for the Government. We have organized a number of seminars, printed information leaflets for distribution and responded to tens of thousands of telephone enquiries. The Government has planned to organize a major seminar with 500 participants by the end of this year. It has been the past practice for each seminar to be held with only one ordinance as the focus. It might be about "occupational safety", "anti-discrimination", or even "equal opportunities". All of the seminars can be said to be independent of one another. Will the Government tell us if it is possible to organize events on a more comprehensive and bigger scale such as the staging of large-scale activities over a few consecutive days, so as to introduce all the relevant legislation to the employers and employees?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am very grateful that the Honourable James TIEN puts forward this proposal which we will study. I would like to stress one point and that is, if we organize a "cocktail" of promotional activities, the messages thus conveyed may be very scattered. But in any case, we will refer the proposal to the Labour Department to consider if various highlights can be introduced on a larger-scale occasion simultaneously.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO Sai-chu.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): Will the Secretary for Education and Manpower inform this Council whether the Government encountered any problems in finance and manpower for it has done so much work? Are all the expenses assumed by the Government? Did the Occupational Safety and Health Council (OSHC) shoulder its share in terms of expenses and manpower?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have in fact made concerted efforts to achieve our goal. The Labour Department has appropriated over $3 million in this year's budget for promotion and publicity, whereas the OSHC also needs to take up its responsibility because its key work is to promote with a view to familiarizing the employers and employees with occupational safety. In this aspect, the OSHC is playing an increasingly important role. As for other organizations such as the Occupational Deafness Compensation Board, they have also spared no pains. Last year, the Board has organized a series of promotional activites to publicize the extension of the application period in the hope that the message can be conveyed to the workers concerned. As such, we are actually working closely together as a team.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE Kai-ming.

MR LEE KAI-MING (in Cantonese): The Secretary for Education and Manpower pointed out in his reply to the last part of the question that 630 000 telephone enquiries were received in three months alone. This figure is not surprising at all, and in fact a lot of the calls could not get through. Will the Secretary tell us whether the Government has subsidized, helped and encouraged some labour organizations to publicize and promote labour-related legislation?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have clearly pointed out in my reply that many of the seminars did not just aim at employers, representatives from trade unions were also our major targets. In fact, we are very grateful to the trade unions because messages can then be brought to their members through their participation. We will strengthen our work in this respect.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, ever since the relevant legislation was passed, many employers of domestic helpers asked me how they would be affected. Will the Secretary for Education and Manpower inform this Council from whom these hundreds of thousands of "small-scale employers" can seek help in case they have difficulties? Will the Government systematically record the difficulties they encounter so as to carry out its promise that it will review the legislation in the light of the unique working environment of domestic helpers?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. I have clearly pointed out in my reply earlier that it has been the practice of the Labour Department for many years to organize a wide variety of promotional activities to publicize any newly enacted labour-related legislation. This does not only refer to the Labour Department itself. Information leaflets are also freely distributed through District Offices and relevant organizations. If an employer encounters difficulties, the Labour Department's district offices will be pleased to answer their queries. As for telephone service, the public can dial the number 2717 1771 that I mentioned just now at any time. It is a 24-hour recording service to enable us to follow up.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Will the Government record systematically the problems encountered by the employers in applying the law in order to assist in the conducting of reviews?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): As far as day-to-day work is concerned, all such complaints which are more difficult to handle as well as enquiries would be referred to the relevant Labour Officers for follow-ups. We will further strengthen our service in this aspect.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. While the Government has done a lot in the aspect of occupational safety through various forms of promotion and education, the number of industrial accidents still seems to be very high. Will the Government inform this Council whether there are adequate penalties imposed on the employers and employees who violate the occupational safety ordinances? Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, this question actually has nothing to do with the promotion work we are talking about, but I will still try to answer to the best of my ability. We are extremely concerned about the penalty imposed for violating the laws, especially in the aspect of fines. In fact, we have recently amended the Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance to increase the fines and extend the term of imprisonment in the hope of achieving a deterrent effect.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr HO Sai-chu.

MR HO SAI-CHU (in Cantonese): I am quite surprised at the allocation of funds mentioned by the Secretary for Education and Manpower. The OSHC asked us to appropriate as much as $15 million, but the Government just pointed out that it estimated that only $3.5 million would be needed for organizing all promotional activities. It seems there is a great discrepancy between the two figures. Does the Government really have enough funds? If not, should the Government consider increasing the allocation of funds?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we are now considering how to broaden sources of income for the OSHC so as to increase its revenue. As regards our intention to raise its levy, this has already been endorsed by the Labour Advisory Board in its meeting on 15 August. The Government will follow up in this respect in the hope that the OSHC can have more income so as it could strengthen promotion in this area.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Secretary tell us if the Government will consider setting up a fund from which trade unions or concerned groups can apply for the allocation of funds for promoting occupational safety and health?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have no intention to set up a fund at the present stage because the Government has already done a lot in promotion. Of course, we would be delighted to see and we hope to see the participation of non-governmental organizations such as employers' associations and trade unions. However, at this stage, we do not have the intention to set up a fund. Neither do we think there is such a need in practice.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Thank you, Madam President. Just now the Secretary said that they have already conducted wide publicity. But after going through the Government's reply today, I would like to ask the Government whether it will include Internet as one of its promotion channels? Since this is an age of highly-developed information technology, it would be extremely unfavourable to environmental protection to mail copies of the Labour Focus to employers.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): The Labour Department will soon leave the Stone Age and enter the Information Age. It is anticipated that the Department will get connected to the Internet next month.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): My main question is that since many of the labour-related ordinances, such as those relating to occupational safety and anti-discrimination, were passed hastily by the former Legislative Council without careful deliberation, can the Government ensure that these ordinances do not contradict each other? For example, in the aspect of occupational safety, some ordinances serve to protect women and children. However, it is stipulated in the anti-discrimination ordinances that they have to be employed on an equal basis. Can the Government confirm the employers that it has studied all these ordinances and proved that no contradiction exists among them?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, we have done a lot of work before we published these information leaflets. Apart from being clearly illustrated, each of the leaflets is written in simple, everyday language and the whole piece of legislation is introduced by means of jargons comprehensible to the man in the street. Madam President, we have conducted comprehensive publicity in respect of all kinds of related messages among the public.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr James TIEN.

MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Secretary has not answered my question. I just want him to tell us is there any contradiction between the leaflets?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am sure there is no contradiction.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Last question seeking an oral reply. Mr LAU Wong-fat.

Reviewing Rejected Housing Development Plans

6. MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, in view of the present strong demand for housing in Hong Kong, will the Government inform this Council whether it will, in the context of increasing housing supply, review the existing criteria for vetting development projects, so that certain development projects previously rejected for environmental reasons, such as the one at Sha Lo Tung in Tai Po, can be approved under the new vetting criteria?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I would like to thank the Honourable LAU Wong-fat for raising this question because it gives me the opportunity to explain the Government's policy on private housing development projects, particularly when they involve environmental considerations. To put it simply, the Government's policy is to facilitate private sector housing development while ensuring that the planning, environmental, transport, land administration and building safety requirements are met. To put the policy into practice, we have, over the year, adopted a substantial body of approval procedures and criteria in the form of legislation and administrative guidelines. We are profoundly aware of the need to keep these procedures and criteria up to date so that they reflect the current aspirations of the community.

As the Chief Executive pointed out in his speech on 1 July 1997, we will "increase the efficiency of housing production through a comprehensive review of the existing organization and working procedures." I am glad to say that we are making good progress. We will announce the results soon.

To answer Mr LAU's point about housing development projects being rejected because of environmental reasons, I wish to say clearly that environmental consideration is only one of many factors, but not the only one in vetting a development proposal, albeit a very important one, given Hong Kong's unique circumstances of housing more than 6 million people in a small place. What we should aim for is a balance between the need for development and environmental and ecological preservation. There is also no reason why we should not try to achieve a quality environment and development together. Indeed there are many examples in Hong Kong where this can be and have been done.

Mr LAU has quoted Sha Lo Tung as an example. I would like to clarify that the development project has not been rejected. The publication of the draft Development Permission Area plan in January 1997 only means that the proposed land use pattern in the area has been delineated, and that a development proposal is subject to the plan and where appropriate, permission by the Town Planning Board. Persons interested to develop in the area may make an application to the Town Planning Board, if they wish to do so.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Wong-fat.

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, the development project of Sha Lo Tung has got entangled for as long as 18 years. This year, the Government gazetted the Development Permission Area plan of Sha Lo Tung again. As a result, developers have to apply to the Town Planning Board for the approval of any development project to be carried out in the area. Will the Government inform this Council what the reasons are behind this decision of gazetting the plan? Will this act further delay the development project of Sha Lo Tung?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, it has always been the Government's policy to assist and guide the development of land use in Hong Kong through town planning. In the past, town planning was non-existent in many parts of the New Territories except new towns. As a result, we can all see that there are some problems with the development of the New Territories. Since an amendment to the Town Planning Ordinance was passed by the Legislative Council in 1990, the Government has been assigned a task to gradually include the New Territories in the scope of town planning. The Development Permission Area plan is an advance work to be done prior to the drafting of the town development plan for the New Territories. Its purpose is to enable land use in certain areas, especially those requiring planning co-ordination, to be confirmed earlier by means of a quicker method, so as to give the residents or landlords concerned a procedure to follow to express their opinions or to counter-propose to the Town Planning Board regarding the planning of those areas. As for Sha Lo Tung, the Town Planning Board has actually been planning to include it in the Development Permission Area plan for years. To this end, the work was completed in January this year.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Madam President, will the Government inform this Council, up to now, how many development projects have been rejected because of environmental considerations? What is the total area of land involved?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I dare say that, up to now, I have not seen a single project being rejected simply because of environmental considerations. In many cases, a project is rejected due to a conglomeration of considerations. The Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance passed by the former Legislative Council also points out that unless a certain housing development area is situated in an ecologically sensitive area, or the future resident population therein will exceed 2 000 and the area is not supplemented with any sewers or other basic facilities, all housing development projects are not required to conduct environmental assessment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG Leung-sing.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to these private housing development projects, can the Government announce the location of the relevant items rejected because of environmental considerations, the area involved and the number of domestic units reduced as a result?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands, your reply just now has answered this question, do you want to supplement anything?

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to supplement two points. Regarding the locations where development is rejected, generally we have to respect the applicants or developers who hope to keep the situation of their company confidential. We have received many such applications and the applicants would not be pleased to make public the locations involved in respect of their application. For the approved applications, the companies concerned would of course let everyone know. But they would not want us to make public the rejected cases because they might want to do something again to overcome certain problems or buy more land and then apply again. Therefore, as a general rule, we would not announce the locations of these projects unless the developers themselves disclose them. For this reason, I cannot tell Honourable Members the area and the number of buildings involved. This is mainly because the area or number of buildings proposed by the developers are only what they apply for. It does not necessarily mean that such will definitely be approved and the refusal of such will result in the reduction of a certain number of units. As the developer may provide us with a very high and unrealistic figure, so we do not have a practical criterion to calculate an ideal figure for development.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LAU Kong-wah.

MR LAU KONG-WAH (in Cantonese): Madam President, the Government stated clearly in its reply that the vetting procedure of land in the past was basically redundant or complicated, and it is under review right now. Did the example of Sha Lo Tung case have this phenomenon? What different factors will the Government take into consideration in future for deciding on this development project?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, with regard to the Sha Lo Tung case, Mr LAU has said earlier that this development plan has got entangled for more than a decade. Maybe I should briefly tell Members the fact so as to let them know whether the problem lies in the approval procedure or is caused by other reasons? In the first place, there were originally residents of two old villages living at Sha Lo Tung. More than a decade ago, a certain developer lobbied the villagers to sell him all the land so that he could apply to the Government to build houses. In return, the villagers would be given houses and financial rewards at the completion of the project. When the developer presented the proposal to the Government more than a decade ago, there were only a few dozens of houses at Sha Lo Tung whereas the developer proposed to build several hundreds. Besides, he wished to buy the land belonging to the country park adjacent to Sha Lo Tung from the Government in order to build an 18-hole golf course. At that time, the proposal evoked a strong reaction from among the community and that is why the land belonging to the country park (it belongs to all Hong Kong citizens as well) should be sold to developers for private development. At the same time, some organizations also applied to the court for judicial review and eventually won. Afterwards, the developer considered for a while (there is no need to say in detail how long it took) and applied again, saying that he would replace the 18-hole golf course with a nine-hole one so that the land belonging to the country park would not be involved. We did consider his proposal but there were a lot of problems with Sha Lo Tung. One of the problems was Sha Lo Tung was one of the sources of the catchment area of the reservoir in that area. After studying the development project, both the Agriculture and Fisheries Department and the Water Supplies Department opined that the insecticidal and irrigation systems proposed at that time would seriously affect water collected in that area and the water quality would become problematic. As a result, the developer indicated that he needed to study again. For every procedure, we would tell him where the problems lied and teach him how to solve them. After studying, he said he would alter the project again. At that time, some academics have already pointed out to us that Sha Lo Tung possessed very high ecological value, so we asked the developer to look into this point and clarify it because he wanted to develop the land there. The developer spent over one year to conduct ecological and environmental assessments and found that Sha Lo Tung is one of the richest places in terms of ecology in Hong Kong. For example, of the 100-odd species of dragonfly in Hong Kong, more than 60 species could be found in Sha Lo Tung alone and among which several species were found nowhere else in the world except Sha Lo Tung. It was pointed out by the report of the developer, not our study that, once the area is developed, all these things will be seriously affected. Subsequently, numerous entomologists and ecologists all over the world went to Sha Lo Tung to study and they supported the environmental assessment report (commissioned by the developer himself).

The report was subsequently submitted to the Environment and Planning Committee and four meetings were held to study in detail the report and development proposal. In conclusion, the Committee was of the view that the measures proposed by the developer to relieve the impact on ecology were not enough and it suggested the Government not to approve the plan. We have all along been telling the developer the reasons. There is yet one very important point that I have to point out to Members. The Town Planning Board published a Development Permission Area Plan this year in which the boundary of the village is clearly defined. If villagers of that area want to develop their own houses (such as small houses) within the boundary of the village, they will not be required to apply as long as the development is carried out within the boundary. In other words, this Development Permission Area Plan will have no impact at all on the rights of the indigenous residents to develop houses of their own interests and they do not need to make applications to the Town Planning Board. So what is being affected by the Development Permission Area Plan? If a developer wants to, outside the boundary of the village, include in his development project land originally approved by the Government as farmland or for other agricultural purposes, he will need to apply for approval.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KAN Fook-yee.

MR KAN FOOK-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, just now I heard the Secretary mentioned the Sha Lo Tung case in connection of which I have also received complaints. Since many Members have already asked about this issue, I will not pursue it anymore. However, when the Secretary replied Mr LAU Wong-fat's question, he expressed that many factors have been considered regarding the approval of the application. I would like to ask the Secretary whether he would make a performance pledge to the applicant when he considers an application? In other words, how long will it take before the applicant can get an answer as the Sha Lo Tung case has dragged on for too long though the Secretary has explained why?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, all the legal procedures for dealing with most of the projects that require vetting, as I said earlier, are already listed in the administrative guidelines. In fact, a time limit has been provided for in law requiring us when to handle a certain case. We have also made performance pledges for procedures related to administrative guidelines. Let us go back to the Sha Lo Tung case. I just said that, for every procedure, we actually studied the proposal according to schedule and relayed the problematic areas to the developer. It frequently took the developer over one year or a couple of years to re-amend the proposal and submit it to us for vetting again. And then again, we would tell him where the problems lied. This accounts for the longer time needed.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NGAN Kam-chuen.

MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have pointed out in the past that while the Government took environmental protection into consideration when it made its development planning, it often overlooked people's livelihood and economic effectiveness. The container storage sites in North West New Territories and the present development at Sha Lo Tung in Tai Po are also examples of such cases. Will the Government inform us how it strikes a balance between sensible utilization of land resources and environmental protection or, to put it more clearly, how important are the environmental protection organizations' opinions in the decision-making of the Government?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, actually I have said earlier that one point is very important and that is in the Sha Lo Tung case, the interests of the indigenous residents in developing land have not been affected at all. The Development Permission Area Plan of Sha Lo Tung has delineated sufficient land for the indigenous residents to build small houses. Hence, their original rights of constructing houses are not affected at all. What we are discussing now is that the developer, as a third person, intends to build additional houses or construct a recreational club or golf course in the middle of the indigenous residents' farmlands. Therefore, in this particular example, the rights of the residents are basically not being affected.

As for how to strike a balance between environmental protection and people's livelihood and interests, it is difficult to explain comprehensively with one single case. But, most of the time, a balance can usually be achieved if there are adequate co-ordinations or studies to see how various parties can co-ordinate. The Sha Lo Tung case has yet another problem. What we are talking about is an ecological issue instead of an environmental issue such as air or noise pollution, so the relations are even more subtle. When we drafted the Development Permission Area Plan, actual land has been delineated for the villagers to develop their own interests. In addition, we have delineated land for the purpose of setting up a special conservation zone. Furthermore, a zone without specific use has been delineated and the use of which will be decided pending our vetting of the applications. If our requirement is fulfilled, the development can go ahead. But I want to point out that, up to now, we have not received any applications for development in accordance with the Development Permission Area Plan from developers. Therefore, no vetting can be done at the moment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kennedy WONG.

MR KENNEDY WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I want to know how the Government can provide more information to the public, particularly developers, about environmental and ecological preservation. Let me cite an example from some of the cases I got involved with. For instance, a developer bought some land near Mai Po in Yuen Long, but when he applied to the Government for developing the land, the Government said that a certain type of building could not be constructed there because of some problems with the routing of some migratory birds. I think environmental preservation is important, but should the Government not increase resources and make public such information as far as possible so that the public and developers can become aware of them?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I agree with this view. In fact, we have also done so. If the developer alleged that he was not aware of the requirements for carrying out development near Mai Po and the points to note, I think he might not have revealed all the information. This is because, we have long ago set up a buffer zone 1 and a buffer zone 2 near Mai Po. We have also published through town planning procedures what projects can be carried out in the two buffer zones, whereas explanatory notes have been given in the development blueprints. Therefore, the Government has not concealed any information. If a developer really wants to carry out development, we will also point out what should be noted for developing the area concerned and what assessments need to be made.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Raymond HO.

DR RAYMOND HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, just now the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands has told us the story of Sha Lo Tung clearly. He has also mentioned that a balance must be maintained between environmental protection and development. I am worried about this point, which is very important, as the Chief Executive will initiate co-operation between the Government and the private sector to build 85 000 housing units each year. Will the Secretary inform this Council if, when a developer proposes a project, some experts have already made an ecological and environmental assessment report and the project is subsequently rejected by the Town Planning Board, whether the Board will set out some specific or additional requirements and inform the developer clearly what requirements he has to meet before his application can be approved?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to answer the question in two separate points. First, I have said a moment ago that it is pointed out in the present Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance that, for housing development, unless the area concerned is situated in an ecologically sensitive area, or the future population therein will exceed 2 000 and the area is not provided with any sewers or other basic facilities, we will not ask the developers to make environmental assessments. Second, if an environmental assessment has been made and the Town Planning Board finds the development proposal unacceptable and the answer is positive, the Board will be obliged to inform the applicant which parts of his study or application need to be further examined or improved.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Three Members have already indicated that they would like to ask supplementary questions. I will take this as the limit. Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, my question is also related to Sha Lo Tung because of the residents' complaints. In this case, I feel that there are some popular discontents which the Government may be able to abate. For example, just now the Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands said villagers wishing to build houses there would not be affected whatsoever. But has this message been conveyed to them so that they know they will not be rendered homeless and it will be all right for them to build houses there? Secondly, under normal circumstances, how long does it take to vet an application?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, we know very well that the Sha Lo Tung residents have practical difficulty and that is, they have sold their rights to build houses to the developer. Therefore, they will not have the houses until the developer builds them. The existing problem does not lie in whether or not they can build their own houses; rather the problem is they have sold their rights to other people, hoping that they will gain benefit as the developer builds more facilities. Of course, if the residents come to us to apply for the construction of small houses or development in a certain aspect, we will proceed according to the normal procedure. Given that the Sha Lo Tung case has been delayed for such a long time, we might give them priority treatment. However, if the developer is to pursue its project according to its plan, it will be impossible for us to predict how long the vetting will take because we have not received the application yet and we do not know what it will be like.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, prior to 1898, if an indigenous New Territories resident owned a piece of land, he would have the right to build houses anywhere (even on a piece of farmland). However, the United Kingdom leased the New Territories for a period of 99 years in 1898 and ever since then, land in the New Territories became Crown land and Block Crown Lease was given to the indigenous residents to restrict their rights to build houses. Now I am not saying whether Sha Lo Tung can be or should be developed. This is not a problem at all. The problem is that the Government gave approval in some cases, such as the project at Ma Wan, whereas the one at Sha Lo Tung was rejected. In this regard, what argument did the Government hold? This is the first point. More importantly, after 1898, the Block Crown Lease deprived the indigenous residents of their rights to develop their land and this is where the crux of the problem lies. I think that the Honourable LAU Wong-fat is not ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG, we are now asking questions instead of conducting a debate, so I hope you can ask your question concisely. If you want to debate, you may move another motion debate. You may now raise your question but please be more concise.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): The question I want to ask is why some land which was basically subject to no restriction before was turned into restricted land where development was prohibited, thus allowing the Government to approve certain places while rejecting the others at its own will? How come Ma Wan was approved whereas Sha Lo Tung was rejected?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I would like to answer the second question first. This is because the condition of Ma Wan is totally different from that of Sha Lo Tung. The problems pertaining to ecology and environment do not exist at all in the development project of Ma Wan. As not even one single dragonfly, not to say rare species, can be found in Ma Wan, there is basically nothing that is being affected. It is very difficult indeed to compare the two places. I want to point out that the ecological value of Sha Lo Tung was not discovered by the Government's research. Rather, it was set out in detail in the environmental assessment commissioned by the developer and was later recognized by international and local academics. With regard to Mr WONG's first question asking why restrictions are now in place but there was no restriction prior to 1898. The answer is simply that the concept of town planning was probably not in existence in 1898 or prior to 1898 throughout the whole world. Our society is constantly changing and making progress. No matter whether it is a Crown lease or not, I believe a town planning system must be put in place to serve as a guideline for land use in the development of any new cities or new places. We cannot farm in Tsim Sha Tsui or undertake in a residential district activities which are completely incompatible with its vicinity. Such a system of control should be put in place.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Follow-up question? Mr Andrew WONG.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, in the Secretary's reply earlier, he said that houses can be built inside the boundary of a village but not outside ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG, I am sorry I have to stop you again because, as a rule, follow-up question is confined to the question you raised just now. If the public officer has not replied your question, you can ask him to answer your question. However, you should not raise a new question.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Since you said "follow-up question", I thought I could follow up casually. (Laughter) If you said ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Andrew WONG, you just said you could casually follow up a question. I could understand it if another Member says so. But since you were the President of the Legislative Council, you should know very well what are supplementary questions and follow-up questions. As such, I did not remind you in particular.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, if I think the Secretary has not answered my question completely, I will follow up. But when I raised my hand, you said "follow-up question". Therefore, I thought I could follow up a question by raising another question casually just like what we did in an ordinary meeting. In this respect, I am sorry.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Never mind. Just now I said only three Members indicated they would like to speak. The third one, Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): According to what the Secretary said earlier, it seems that, in the course of dispute, the Government kept imposing new restrictions. The Secretary just mentioned that he hoped to strike a balance between environmental protection and people's livelihood. In this connection, will the Secretary inform this Council what the villagers have got from this balance after waiting for 18 years? By what means can they safeguard their livelihood? The Secretary said that the villagers had sold their land ownership to the developer, then how are they going to strike their own balance now?

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands.

SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Cantonese): Madam President, I do not agree with the saying that new restrictions are added in the course of discussion as the developers also kept changing their plans. I do admit one point though and that is, they made amendments because we had pointed out to them where the problems lied after we examined their previous proposals. But no matter what, the problems have always been those few points which I have already explained here earlier when I sketched out the relevant history. Firstly, at the beginning, they wanted the land belonging to the country park and asked the Government to sell it to them for the construction of a private golf course. But after going through the court, we found the project unfeasible and it was not going to work. Afterwards, the problem of water quality popped up. At last, the developers made an assessment of the ecology and environment of the area and discovered that there were new problems pertaining to ecology. Regarding the second point of the question as to how a balance can be struck between development and environment, this is actually what we want the Development Permission Area plan can achieve. Members having the opportunity to see this plan would have found that we have delineated part of the land as a development zone for the village, part as a conservation zone, whereas the use of some other part of the land has not been decided, pending the arrangements proposed in the applications. We hope to achieve as far as possible a balance in the guideline for land use. In other words, if the development project is able to provide a comprehensive plan for the land where the village is situated or for the land of unspecified use and it can also protect the area we ought to protect ─ actually the conservation zone is consists of the several rivers at Sha Lo Tung and the 30 metres of land on the two sides of the rivers ─ we can in fact take such an application into consideration. The problem is that we have not received the application up till now and we do not know what the situation will be like.

As for the issue of protecting the villagers, we can look at it from two perspectives. Firstly, the rights of residents, as indigenous residents who exercise their own rights, to build houses within the boundary of the village have not been affected so far. Then why are some being affected? It is only because some villagers have sold their rights to the developer. Therefore, what we are talking about is whether or not the developer can carry out the development project and act up to the promise he gave to the residents more than a decade ago. This promise was given by the developer, not by the Government. Therefore, the developer is obliged to make arrangements for the residents.

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Schooling for New Arrival Children

7. MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Chinese): It is learnt that more schools will be built to cater for the schooling need of children who have newly arrived in Hong Kong from the Mainland. In this regard, will the Government inform this Council:

  1. of the districts in which the new schools to be built will be located and the reasons for selecting the districts concerned; and

  2. how it ensures that there will be no excess or shortage of school places in some districts so that students will not have to study in schools outside their districts?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President,
  1. To cater for the educational needs of children and young people newly arrived from the Mainland, the Government has added seven primary and nine secondary schools to the School Building Programme. The scheduled completion dates of these schools fall between the 1997-98 and 1999-00 school years. Their locations are:

    Primary Schools

    District/ School YearSai KungKowloon CityTsuen Wan Kwai Tsing Kwun Tong Sub-total
    1997-19981 2 1 1 0 5
    1998-1999 1 0 0 0 1 2

    Secondary Schools
    District/ School Year Tuen Mun Sai Kung Outlying Islands Yuen Long Sha Tin North District Tai Po Hong Kong East Sub-total
    1999-2000 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 9


    In selecting the above locations for building the new schools, the Education Department took into account the past distribution pattern of newly arrived children and young people, the demand and supply of school places in the districts concerned and whether suitable school sites are available in these districts.

    As we estimate that the number of newly arrived children and young people will go up to 66 000, the Government plans to build another six primary and 10 secondary schools before the 2001-2002 school year to meet the growing demand. The Government will closely monitor the developments regarding newly arrived children and young people in order to finalize the locations for the 16 new schools.

  2. In view of the dynamic changes in the territory's population distribution due to such factors as district development plans and population movements, the Education Department reviews the demand and supply of primary/secondary school places and their geographical distribution every year. The Education Department will take into account the most up-to-date information on newly arrived children and young people in the review. In the event of excess or shortage of school places, generally or in a particular district, the Education Department will rectify such inbalance by increasing/cutting the number of classes and through adjusting the priorities of projects under the School Building Programme, so as to avoid or reduce the need for students to attend schools outside their districts.
Improving Training Programme for Nurses

8. DR DAVID LI: It is reported that a student nurse in the Intensive Care Unit of the Prince of Wales Hospital mistakenly connected a nutrition pack to a tube in the patient's neck, resulting in milk being pumped into the patient's veins instead of his stomach. In this connection, does the Government know:

  1. whether the Hospital Authority (HA) will conduct a review of the training programme for nurses to ensure that no similar incident will recur in future; if so, what the details are;

  2. how the Hospital Authority will ensure that nurses, especially those working in intensive care units, are up to the standard required and under sufficient supervision whilst at work; and

  3. whether additional provision will be allocated for recruiting more qualified nurses in public hospitals, especially in intensive care units?
SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND WELFARE: Madam President,
  1. The HA's nursing schools provide a three-year training course for student nurses in accordance with the requirements of the Nursing Board of Hong Kong. The course covers a comprehensive range of theoretical aspects and practical experience of nursing in both acute and extended care areas. The curriculum in the nursing course is under regular review in line with advances in medical technology and new developments in nursing and health services. Student nurses are required to reach expected competence in specific aspects of nursing care and procedures, including competence in patient feeding either orally or through a nasal-gastric tube. Only those who have been assessed as being competent in feeding patient are assigned the job. The incident mentioned in the question took place in a medical ward. A full investigation into the matter is being conducted. The result of the investigation will assist the HA in identifying improvement measures required to prevent recurrence of similar incidents in the future.

  2. To ensure that nurses, especially those working in critical care services, are up to the required standard and are under sufficient supervision at work, the HA has adopted the following measures:

    1. Professional competence

      The HA will ensure professional competence through recruitment of nursing staff with appropriate professional qualifications and through programmes of continuing education and training. The latter are currently provided by the HA's Institute of Advanced Nursing Studies and tertiary institutions which offer training programmes in specialized nursing areas. In 1997-98, a total of 350 nurses will attend the HA's certificate and other training courses in critical care services.

    2. Clinical supervision

      The HA will ensure that qualified senior nurses are available to supervise the work of junior nursing staff in hospitals. There is already in existence a structured system for this purpose. For student nurses, clinical supervision is provided by nurse tutors and clinical supervisors in hospitals.

      There are other systems and mechanisms in place in the public hospitals to ensure proper monitoring of clinical services and to safeguard professional standards. Examples of these systems include clinical audit, quality assurance system, critical incident reporting system, clinical practice guidelines and complaint management system. Due to rapid advances in technology and the increasing complexity of clinical procedures and treatment, these systems are being regularly reviewed in the HA. Following the recent clinical incidents, the HA has initiated a comprehensive review of various monitoring systems, including clinical audit and clinical supervision.

    3. The HA regularly reviews the nursing manpower situation in public hospitals and is now in the process of assessing the workload of nursing staff in pressure areas such as intensive care units. Meanwhile, the HA will continue to provide training opportunities for nursing staff to enhance their professional knowledge and expertise in critical care services, including intensive care.
Classification of Secondary Schools

9.DR LEONG CHE-HUNG: Will the Government inform this Council:
  1. whether secondary schools in Hong Kong are currently classified into five bands, namely Band One to Band Five; if so, of the criteria for such a classification as well as the numbers of schools and students in each band; and

  2. if the answer to (a) above is in the negative, whether there are any internal guidelines on the classification of schools according to the performance of their students; if so, of the details of such guidelines and the numbers of schools and students in the various categories under such a classification system?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER: Madam President,
  1. The Government does not classify secondary schools on the basis of the academic performance of their students.

    Under the Secondary School Places Allocation System, every year the Education Department allocates Secondary 1 places to pupils, in order, by net, by band, by parents' choices of schools and by the computer-generated random number allotted to each pupil.

    Every year, the Education Department will scale the internal assessments of Primary 6 pupils in each school according to the Academic Aptitude Test results of the pupils. Primary 6 pupils in each Secondary School Places Allocation Net are divided into five equal bands based on the scaled assessments. The top 20% of the pupils are included in Band 1, the next 20% in Band 2, and so on. After such banding, all pupils in the same band are considered to have similar academic performance. Pupils in Band 1 are allocated Secondary 1 places according to their parents' choices first, then Band 2 pupils and so on. If the demand for places in a school exceeds the supply, the school places will be allocated to pupils in the same band in the order of their computer-generated random numbers. After allocating school places to pupils in Band 1, the allocation process will repeat for pupils in Band 2, until all Primary 6 pupils in the net have been allocated a Secondary 1 place.

  2. The Education Department does not have internal guidelines on the classification of schools according to the academic performance of their students.
Balance of Arrivals and Departures in Hong Kong

10. MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Chinese): According to the data of the Census and Statistics Department, the "balance of arrivals and departures" has increased by 8.3 times from 1991 to 1996. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of the actual numbers of arrivals in the past three years, as well as the projected figures for 1997 and 1998, in respect of the following categories:

  1. holders of One-way Exit Permits;

  2. emigrant returnees;

  3. foreign domestic helpers; and

  4. other categories?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): Madam President,

Relevant figures are tabulated below:

(a) (b) (c) (d)
One-way Permit holder Net movement of Hong Kong residents holding permanent ID cards/Hong Kong travel documents Net increase in foreign domestic helpers Net increase in other categories
Actual figures
1994 38 200 20 400 20 800 25 200

1995 46 000 50 100 15 600 23 100

1996 61 200 63 900 7 300 - 1 200
Projected figures
1997 54 750 87 000 * 36 900
1998 54 750 22 000 * 16 100


* Please see paragraph 3.

Figures for question (b) cannot be provided. The figures on the balance of arrival and departures are compiled on the basis of movement records captured at immigration control points. Holders of Hong Kong Identity Cards may leave or enter Hong Kong using their identity cards without being asked the purpose of their departure or arrival. Returned emigrants cannot be identified from those entering Hong Kong with their identity cards.

The projected figures for question (c) are not provided separately. They have been subsumed into the projected figures in category (d).

The figures provided in (d) cover, among others, the number of emigrants who return to Hong Kong using foreign passports.

Football Pools

11. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Chinese): It is reported that football pools will be introduced in Macau. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council whether:
  1. it is an offence under the law in Hong Kong to place bets on these pools through making telephone calls to Macau; and

  2. the Government has carried out any studies on the feasibility of introducing football pools in Hong Kong as well as the effects of their introduction on the community; if so, what the details are?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): Madam President,
  1. Under the Gambling Ordinance (Cap. 148), it is possible that people in Hong Kong who place telephone calls to Macau to bet on football matches might contravene Section 8 of the Ordinance, that is "betting with a bookmaker".

  2. It is Government's policy not to encourage gambling but to allow limited, controlled gambling outlets to exist. In line with this policy, the Administration has not considered nor studied the possibility of expanding the authorized gambling channels to include betting on football matches.
Tseung Kwan O Industrial Estate Phase II

12. MR JAMES TIEN (in Chinese): In view of the scheduled completion of the road works and construction of other support facilities for the second phase of the Tseung Kwan O Industrial Estate in September this year, will the Government inform this Council:

  1. of the area of land in the second phase of the Tseung Kwan O Industrial Estate that has already been granted to date; and

  2. whether the principle of "establishing industrial estates in order to offer land to manufacturing industries which cannot operate in multi-storey factory buildings" will be relaxed and whether the applications lodged by high-technology companies will be considered, so as to expedite the granting of land at the above Industrial Estate?
SECRETARY FOR TRADE AND INDUSTRY (in Chinese): Madam President, the second phase of the Tseung Kwan O Industrial Estate has a planned development area of 47.4 ha. As at 3 September, 7.4 ha have been granted.

Given that land is a scarce commodity in Hong Kong and that the industrial land at our industrial estates is offered at development cost, we have to ensure the optimum use of such industrial land. It is therefore important to maintain the principle that the land at the industrial estates must be used for industrial operations which cannot be carried out in multi-storey factory buildings. Those industrial operations which can be carried out in multi-storey factory buildings can be accommodated in other types of industrial premises available in the market. We greatly welcome high technology companies with new or improved products or technologies to the industrial estates, provided that the above land use condition is met.

At present, the land at our industrial estates is being taken up steadily. We estimate that on present trends, the remaining land bank of the existing industrial estates will be exhausted by 2004. This has resulted in a policy decision to build a fourth industrial estate. We therefore do not see a need to relax the present land use criteria just in order to expedite the grant of land at the industrial estates.

Calling Number Display for 999 Hotline

13. MR NGAN KAM-CHUEN (in Chinese): Will the Government inform this Council whether the Calling Number Display (CND) Service is currently available on the telephone network of the 999 Police hotline; if not, why not, and whether there is any plan to introduce the CND service on the network as soon as possible?

SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): Madam President, at present, the 999 Police hotline is not equipped with the CND Service. The Police will upgrade the computer systems of the 999 Police hotline to enable it to receive CND signals. The CND service is expected to be introduced into the 999 Police hotline at the Hong Kong Island Regional Command and Control Centre (RCCC) in November 1997, and the Kowloon RCCC as well as the New Territories RCCC in March 1998.

Employment of Former SFC Staff by SEHK and HKFE

14. MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Chinese): In view of some former officials of the Securities and Futures Commission (SFC) taking up appointments as senior executives of the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong Limited (SEHK) and the Hong Kong Futures Exchange Limited (HKFE) respectively, will the Government inform this Council:

  1. of the Government's stance on the above situation; and whether there are any regulations requiring former SFC officials to obtain prior approval from the Government before taking up appointments with SEHK and HKFE; and

  2. whether the above situation is an indication that there is a shortage of qualified personnel suitable for appointment as senior executives of SEHK and HKFE?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES (in Chinese): Madam President,
  1. The Government neither encourages nor discourages the appointment of former executives of the SFC by the SEHK and the HKFE as their senior executives. These appointments are made by the Exchanges concerned independently. To the extent that the SFC has a part to play, prior approval from the Commission is required only in respect of the Chief Executive positions of the two Exchanges in accordance with the Stock Exchange Unification Ordinance (Cap. 361) and the Commodities Trading Ordinance (Cap. 250).

    There are no legal requirements or contractual condition between the SFC and its employees governing the future career of SFC's staff upon their departure. Nonetheless, all members of SFC staff are governed by the secrecy provisions in the Securities and Futures Commission Ordinance (section 59) in respect of information they obtained during their engagement with the SFC even after they have left the Commission.

    It should be noted that most of the SFC staff have had financial services background before joining the SFC and it is only natural that when they leave the SFC they may choose to remain in the profession. In fact there have also been cases of former staff of the Exchanges joining the SFC. These personnel movements are the result of individual decision by the personnel and the employer concerned, rather than any deliberate policy on the part of Government, the SFC or the Exchanges.

  2. The fact that a few former staff members of the SFC took up senior executive positions in the Exchanges is a result of individual recruitment exercises by the two Exchanges which looked for the most suitable and qualified personnel available at the time. The appointments were all made after extensive searches in the market encompassing a very wide range of highly qualified candidates.
Control on Air Pollution

15. MR PAUL CHENG: It is learnt that the number of pollution-related respiratory illnesses are on the rise, particularly among the young. Moreover, the air quality has worsened recently as indicated by the Air Pollution Index (API) and the Environmental Protection Department has also acknowledged that air quality at street level is about 20% worse than what the API indicates. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
  1. of the reasons for the long time taken to implement the proposal to change the fuel for taxis and light buses from diesel to Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG);

  2. whether there are plans to develop a more stringent policy to ensure that all vehicles are roadworthy, particularly in regard to setting more stringent standards concerning emission of pollutants; and

  3. whether there are plans to review the policies and enforcement actions relating to environmental issues in the entire Pearl River Delta in conjunction with the relevant authorities in the Mainland, bearing in mind that most manufacturing activities have shifted to the southern part of the Mainland?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS: Madam President,
  1. Unlike diesel and petrol vehicles, LPG vehicles require a new supporting infrastructure which needs some time to develop. To achieve the highest safety and performance standards, we are now examining the practical issues involved in the large scale introduction of LPG vehicles. These include fuel supply and distribution, the types of LPG vehicles to be used, the number and location of LPG filling stations required, and the regulatory framework to ensure the safe operation and satisfactory repair and maintenance of LPG vehicles. The above also require consultation with fuel suppliers, vehicle suppliers and taxi operators. We shall launch a trial of LPG taxis later this year to ascertain their technical reliability in Hong Kong and to gauge the operating cost data for devising a practicable motor fuel strategy to improve air quality.

  2. Our policy is to adopt the most stringent vehicle fuel and emission standards once they are technologically feasible. Under the Road Traffic (Registration and Licensing of Vehicles) Regulations, vehicles unable to comply with the specified stringent emission standards will not be registered. All vehicles, except private cars, trailers and motorcycles, are required to attend annual roadworthiness inspections during which they have to pass an emission test before their licences can be renewed. We will extend the annual inspection scheme to cover trailers in early 1998. In addition, the Transport Department is considering upgrading the vehicle exhaust smoke testing standards by reducing the maximum permitted smoke level from the current 60 Hartridge Smoke Units to 50 Hartridge Smoke Units in 1998.

  3. A Hong Kong and Guangdong Environmental Protection Liaison Group has been set up since 1990 to co-ordinate and deal with environmental issues of mutual concern. Various environmental issues have been discussed and reviewed at the Liaison Group and its technical subgroup. The last Liaison Group meeting in December 1996 agreed to set up a study group to address the air pollution issues in the Pearl River Delta Region.
Progress of Flood Prevention Programmes in the New Territories

16. MR CHEUNG HON-CHUNG (in Chinese): Slow progress is being made in land resumption, and only two out of the twelve flood prevention projects under the flood prevention programme for the New Territories have been completed on schedule. In addition, there are complaints that the work procedures adopted in these projects have disrupted the flood-discharge function of the existing watercourses, which in turn leads to flooding. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

  1. of the progress to date of the flood prevention projects mentioned above, and provide a timetable for the completion of these projects;

  2. how the progress of these projects are monitored by the relevant departments; and

  3. of the effects brought about by delays in these projects?
SECRETARY FOR PLANNING, ENVIRONMENT AND LANDS (in Chinese): Madam President, difficulties in land aquisition have been overcome and construction has commenced on site for the flood protection scheme in all the 12 villages. We expect to complete works in Tai Tau Leng and Tsung Pak Long in June 1998; in Sha Po Tsuen in September 1998; in Ha Mei San Tsuen and Chau Tau Tsuen in April 1999; in Tsing Lung Tsuen, Fan Tin Tsuen, On Lung Tsuen, San Lung Tsuen, Tung Chun Wai, Wing Ping Tsuen and Yan Shau Wai in May 1999.

The progress of the flood protection scheme is closely monitored by site supervisory staff either directly employed by Government or through consultants. Reports are made to the Drainage Services Department and Territory Development Department on a regular basis.

No significant flooding impact has been observed in the 12 villages despite previous delays. Government will endeavour to ensure that the outstanding works are completed as soon as possible.

Demolition of Cottage Areas

17. MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Chinese): The Chief Executive had said that the Government would clear all cottage areas in Hong Kong. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:

  1. of the details of the plans for clearing the few remaining cottage areas as well as rehousing the affected residents, and the timetable for the clearance operations; and

  2. whether it will offer any compensation to the affected residents; if so, of the criteria used for calculating such compensation?
SECRETARY FOR HOUSING (in Chinese): Madam President, the Government plans to clear the five remaining cottage areas in Hong Kong, namely, Fo Tan, Tung Tau, Lai Chi Kok, Mount Davis and So Kon Po. We are now identifying the rehousing resources required with a view to drawing up a clearance programme soon.

Affected residents will be granted ex gratia allowances for domestic removal. Commercial operators will be given ex gratia allowances to help them overcome temporary financial hardship resulting from the clearance. Under existing policy, no other compensation is payable.

Residents who are eligible for public rental housing upon clearance will be so accommodated. They may opt to buy Home Ownership Scheme/Private Sector Participation Scheme flats with second priority green form status, or apply under the Home Purchase Loan Scheme for loans to buy flats in the private sector. Residents who are not eligible for public rental housing but are in need of accommodation will be given interim housing. No one will be rendered homeless as a result of clearance of cottage areas.

Appointment of Officials of Foreign Countries as Members of Advisory Committees

18. DR LAW CHEUNG-KWOK (in Chinese): It is reported that four officials of the Singaporean government have been appointed as members of the Action Committee Against Narcotics, Employees Retraining Board, Vocational Training Council and Standing Committee on Language Education and Research in Hong Kong respectively. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of:

  1. the criteria adopted by the relevant authorities in inviting officials of foreign governments to serve on advisory boards and committees in Hong Kong;

  2. the advisory boards and committees in Hong Kong which currently have officials of foreign governments in their membership; and

  3. the advisory boards and committees in Hong Kong which currently have officials from the Mainland and Taiwan in their membership?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): Madam President,
  1. In appointing officials from Singapore to the four advisory and statutory bodies referred to in the question, Government believes that these bodies will benefit from the experience and knowledge of the officials from overseas. Also, such arrangement will enhance greater understanding and cross fertilization of ideas and initiatives between the officials of Hong Kong and Singapore.

  2. Except for the four advisory and statutory bodies referred to in the question and the Advisory Council on the Environment, there is no other advisory bodies in Hong Kong having officials of foreign governments in their membership.

  3. The current membership of the advisory bodies in Hong Kong do not have officials from the Mainland and Taiwan.
Unregistered Tutorial Schools

19. MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Chinese): The operator of an unlicensed tutorial school has recently been arrested and is now under investigation by the police. The incident indicates that there is a prevalence of tutorial schools operating without a licence. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council of the respective numbers of tutorial schools which are registered under the relevant legislation and those whose applications for registration are still awaiting approval?

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Chinese): Madam President, as at 3 September 1997, there were 226 tutorial schools registered or provisionally registered as a school under the Education Ordinance. Of these, 134 have been issued certificates of registration and 92 have been issued provisional certificates of registration. At present, we are handling applications for registration from 148 tutorial schools, of which 26 supplied the supporting documents to the Education Department. Their applications will be processed as soon as possible. The remaining 122 tutorial schools have not yet obtained the supporting documents required for making an application for school registration (including safety certificate issued by the Fire Services Department and documents issued by the Buildings Department or Housing Department certifying that the premises at issue are suitable for the purposes of a school). These tutorial schools are now applying for these documents from the relevant departments. Once all the documents are available, the Education Department will process the applications as soon as possible.

BILL

First Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: First Reading.

HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1997

CLERK (in Cantonese): Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997.

Bill read the First time and ordered to be set down for Second Reading pursuant to Rule 53(3) of the Rules of Procedure.

Second Reading of Bill

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Bill: Second Reading. Chief Secretary for Administration.

HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL (AMENDMENT) (NO. 3) BILL 1997

CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION: Madam President, I move that the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 be read the Second time. The Bill aims to amend the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap. 484) to improve its provisions in respect of the constitution of the Appeal Committee to hear applications for leave to appeal.

Section 16 of the Ordinance provides for the constitution of the Court of Final Appeal for substantive hearings of appeals. This section contains a provision which prevents a judge from hearing an appeal from a decision made by him or to which he was a party. The aim is to apply the common law rule against bias by predetermination.

Section 18 of the Ordinance, on the other hand, provides for the constitution of an Appeal Committee for hearing and determining applications for leave to appeal. It provides that an Appeal Committee shall consist of either the Chief Justice and two permanent judges nominated by the Chief Justice, or three permanent judges nominated by the Chief Justice. However, there is no express prohibition against bias by predetermination in this section.

The common law rule against bias by predetermination should apply to both the substantive hearings of appeals and applications for leave to appeal. As in the case of substantive hearings of appeals, it would be inappropriate for a judge to sit on an Appeal Committee if he has previously rejected the application, or if the judgement or order at issue was made by him or by a court of which he was a member.

We therefore propose to amend the Ordinance to apply expressly the common law rule against bias by predetermination to the hearing and determination of any application by the Appeal Committee. As the proposed exclusion from the Appeal Committee of judges who have had a previous involvement with the case may mean that there are insufficient permanent judges to sit on that Committee, an additional amendment has to be made to provide that where a sufficient number of permanent judges is not available for any cause to sit on the Appeal Committee, the Chief Justice shall nominate a non-permanent Hong Kong judge to sit in place of a permanent judge. These two amendments mirror the provisions in sections 16(4) and 16(8) of the Ordinance.

We also propose to make a technical amendment to section 18(2) of the Ordinance to clear any doubts as to the powers of the Appeal Committee. At present, section 18(2) provides that the power of the Court of Final Appeal to hear and determine any application for leave to appeal shall be exercised by the Appeal Committee. For criminal appeals, under section 32 of the Ordinance, leave to appeal shall not be granted by the Appeal Committee unless it is certified by the Court of Appeal or the Court of First Instance that a point of law of great and general importance is involved; and where the court below has refused to certify, the Court of Final Appeal may so certify and grant leave to appeal.

Since section 18 only refers to the power to hear and determine an application for leave to appeal, it is arguable that the application for leave to appeal where a certificate has not previously been granted does not include the application for a certificate under section 32(3). We therefore propose to amend section 18(2) to put beyond doubt that the powers of the Appeal Committee include power to certify under section 32(3) of the Ordinance.

At the moment, there are two pending applications for leave to appeal, in which two of the three permanent judges have previously sat on the Court of Appeal which refused the same application for leave to appeal. There is an urgent need to complete the legislative amendment as soon as possible so as to provide for a proper constitution of an Appeal Committee to hear the two pending applications for leave to appeal. The Bill is therefore essential to the normal operation of the Court of Final Appeal.

Madam President, the Bill aims to solve the practical problems that have arisen in the light of the Judiciary's practical experience in operating the Court since its establishment. The Bill is an essential and technical one, and I commend it to Honourable Members for early passage into law.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 1997 be read the Second time. In accordance with Rule 54(4) of the Rules of Procedure, the debate is now adjourned and the Bill is referred to the House Committee.

MEMBERS' MOTIONS

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members' Motions. Motion to amend the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. Mrs Selina CHOW.

MOTION TO AMEND THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE PROVISIONAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF THE HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that the motion to amend the Chinese and English versions of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region as set out in the Agenda be approved.

All the amendments are proposed by the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (the Working Group) and Members have been consulted through the House Committee. I will now briefly introduce the various proposed amendments.

Rule 2 (Language)

Rules 2(3) and (4) stipulate respectively that a petition in the Chinese or English language shall be accompanied by an English or Chinese translation certified to be correct by a court translator. In considering whether a petition should be accompanied by translation, the Working Group has made reference to Article 9 of the Basic Law and found the Article has not stipulated that official documents ought to have both Chinese and English versions. In view of the practical situation, when a person presents a petition, if he thinks it is necessary to accompany the petition with translation, he should make sure of his own accord that the translation is correct and it conveys his true meaning. The Working Group is of the view that these two subrules are dispensable and therefore proposes to delete them.

Rule 4 (Election of President)

At present, the procedure for the by-election of the President of the Provisional Legislative Council is only set out in the House Rules made by the House Committee. Since the Working Group holds that this procedure should be included in the Rules of Procedure, it is therefore proposed that a Schedule setting out the procedure for the by-election of the President should be added to the Rules of Procedure.

Rule 7 (Counsel to the Legislature)

To ensure a consistency of terms, the Working Group proposes that the term "Legislature" should be amended to read as "Provisional Legislative Council". The Chinese version of this Rule should also be amended slightly so as to improve the language flow.

Rule 9 (Attendance of Public Officers)

Rule 9 provides for the attendance of public officers at meetings of the Council, committees of the whole Council, the Finance Committee or subcommittees of the Finance Committee. The Working Group proposes to add a subrule to this Rule to clearly state that a public officer may also be invited by any other committee or subcommittee of the Council to attend their meetings.

Rule 10 (Participation of Public Officers in Proceedings)

Rule 10(3) should be suitably amended to reflect accurately the official titles of the Chief Secretary for Administration, the Financial Secretary and the Secretary for Justice after 1 July.

Rule 18 (Order of Business at a Meeting)

The proposed amendment seeks to provide for the order of dealing with the reports tabled to select committees and other committees of the Provisional Legislative Council in a clearer manner.

Rule 42 (Behaviour of Members not Speaking)

The Working Group holds that the Rules of Procedure should make reference to the attire of Members in entering or leaving the Council so as to reflect that Members respect the solemnness of the Provisional Legislative Council proceedings.

Rule 70 (Amendments to Heads of Estimates in Committee of the Whole Council on Appropriation Bill) The Working Group proposes to slightly amend the Chinese version of Subrule 10 in order to improve the meaning conveyed and make it consistent with the English version.

Rule 73 (Public Accounts Committee),

Rule 74 (Committee on Members' Interests),

Rule 78 (Select Committees),

and Rule 79 (Procedure of Select Committees)

The Working Group considers that the relevant Rules should provide for the appointment of a deputy chairman in the event of the absence of the chairman of the above committees or as situations require so that the deputy chairman can temporarily take up the chairmanship.

Rule 74A (Committee on Rules of Procedure)

The Working Group considers that the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council and the relevant matters should be dealt with by a special committee. It is therefore appropriate to set up such a committee under the jurisdiction of the Provisional Legislative Council. In this connection, the Working Group proposes to add Rule 74A to provide for the setting up of the Committee on Rules of Procedure. This Committee will take over the duties of the Working Group and will, like the Working Group and other committees, thoroughly consult Members and the House Committee on important issues.

Rule 81 (Premature Publication of Evidence)

In order to make the meaning clearer, the Working Group
proposes to substitute the existing term "公布" now used in
Rule 81 of the Chinese version of the Rules of Procedure with
the term"發表". The Working Group also proposes to make
provision for the punishment imposed on Members who
disclose prematurely the evidence obtained during the meeting
of a select committee.

Rule 82 (Employment of Members in Professional Capacity)

The Working Group thinks that the restriction contained in Rule 82 should be applicable to Members in any professional capacity and should not be limited to Members who are legal practitioners themselves. As such, it is proposed that the term
"法律執業者" should be replaced by the reference to
"專業身分". In order to reflect more accurately the purpose of
this Rule, the term "獎賞" should be changed to "報酬".

Amendments to Rules 29, 74 and 85 of the English version

It is necessary to slightly amend Rules 29, 74(1)(e) and 85 of the English version so as to make them consistent with the Chinese version.

I urge Members to support the above-mentioned amendments.

Thank you, Madam President.

Mrs Selina CHOW moved the following motion:

"That the Chinese and English versions of the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region made by this Council be amended respectively as follows:

    (A) in the Chinese version:

      (1) by deleting Rule 2(3) and (4);

      (2) in Rule 4(1), by deleting "由臨時立法
      會議員經互選產生" and substituting
      "一職如出現空缺,須由臨時立法會議員
      按照附表的規定重新互選主席";

      (3) in Rule 7 -

        (a) in the heading, by deleting "立法機關"
        and substituting "臨時立法會";

        (b) in subrule (1), by deleting "立法機關"
        and substituting "臨時立法會";

        (c) by deleting subrule (2) and substituting -

        "(2)臨時立法會法律顧問的一般職責,
        是就螳犮萿k會的事務或行政所引起的
        法律問題,向臨時立法會主席及臨時立
        法會秘書提供意見。";

        (4) in Rule 9, by adding -

        "(4)臨時立法會轄下其他委員會或小
        組委員會可按需要,邀請政府官員出
        席其會議。";

        (5)in Rule 10(3), by deleting "政務司長、
        財政司長及律政司長" and substituting
        "政務司司長、財政司司長及律政司
        司 長";

        (6) in Rule 18(1)(e), by deleting "專責";

        (7) in Rule 42(a), by deleting "須保持" and
        substituting "在衣飾及舉止上須保持";

        (8) in Rule 70(10), by deleting "(經增加)
        (經削減)" and substituting "(經增加或削減)";

        (9) in Rule 73(3), by deleting everything
        after "一名主席" and substituting "、
        副主席及5名委員組成,全部均須為
        臨時立法會主席按內務委員會決定
        的選舉序任命的議員。如主席及副
        主席暫時缺席,委員會可在其缺席
        期間另選一委員代行主席之職。委
        員會的會議法定人數為主席加上兩
        名委員。";

        (10)in Rule 74 -

  1. in subrule (1)(e), by deleting "84"
    and substituting "85";

  2. in subrule (2), by deleting everything
    after "一名主席" and substituting
    "、副主席及5名委員組成,全部
    均須為臨時立法會主席按內務委
    員會決定的選舉程序任命的議員
    。如主席及副主席暫時缺席,委
    員會可在其缺席期間另選一委員
    代行主席之職。委員會的會議法
    定人數為主席加上兩名委員。";


(11)by adding -

"74A.議事規則委員會

(1)臨時立法會設有一個名為議事規則
委員會的委員會,負責檢討臨時立法
會的議事規則及委員會制度並因應需
要向臨時立法會作出修正或改變的建
議。委員會可研究任何由臨時立法會
或其轄下委員會,或臨時立法會主席
Rule 74A (Committee on Rules of
Procedure)交付,或由委員會本身成員
提出的有關臨時立法會行事方式及議
Rule 74A (Committee on Rules of Procedure)事程序事宜。

(2)委員會由主席及副主席各一名及10
名委員組成,全部均為臨時立法會主
席按內務委員會決定的選舉程序任命
的議員。臨時立法會主席可應邀列席
會議,就臨時立法會行事方式及議事
程序事宜,提供意見。如主席及副主
席暫時缺席,委員會可在席期間另選
一委員代行主席之職。委員會的法定
人數為主席加上3名委員。

(3)委員會須在主席決定的日期、時
間及地點舉行會議。會議的書面預告
須在會議日期最少5整天前發給各委
員,但主席可視乎個別情況指示給
予較短時間的預告。

(4)委員會會議無須公開舉行,但須
不時向臨時立法會報告其討論結果及
作出建議。

(5)所有在委員會內討論的事宜,須
以參與表決的委員贊成者及反對者
的過半數決定;如贊成者及反對者
數目相等,主席或主持會議的任何
其他委員有權作決定性表決。

(6)除本議事規則另有規定外,委員
會的行事方式及筆ゥA由委員會自行
決定。";

(12)in Rule 78(2), by adding "、
副主席" before "及委員";

(13) in Rule 79(3) -
    (a) by adding "及副主席" after
    "如主席";

    (b) by deleting the second appearing
    "主席" and substituting "其";

    (14)in Rule 81 -

    (a) in the heading, by deleting "公布"
    and substituting "發表";

    (b) by re-numbering the Rule as
    Rule 81(1);

    (c) in subrule (1), by deleting "公布"
    and substituting "發表";

    (d) by adding -

    "(2)任何委員會委員如不遵從第
    (1)款的規定,可由臨時立法會
    藉訓誡或譴責的議案加以處分。";
    (15) in Rule 82 -

    (a) by deleting "法律執業者" and
    substituting "專業";

    (b) by deleting "獎賞" and
    substituting "報酬";

    (16)by adding -


    附 表
    [議事規則第4(1)條]
    補選臨時立法會主席的程序

    臨時立法會主席一職如有空缺時,須進行補選。

    2.臨時立法會秘書須於選舉日至少七整天前邀請議員
    提名臨時立法會主席一職的人選,並將附件I的提名
    表格分發給各議員。

    3.臨時立法會主席的提名表格須由一名作為提名人的
    議員,以及另外至少三名作為附議人的議員簽署。獲
    提名的議員須在表格上簽署以示接受提名。表格填妥
    後,須在選舉日至少四整天前送達螳犮萿k會秘書辦
    事處。

    4.任何議員無論屬於被提名人、提名人或附議人的身
    分,其姓名均不得出現在多於一張提名表格之上。如
    某位議員的姓名出現在多於一張提名表格之上(不論
    是被提名人、提名人或附議人的身分),則只有臨時
    立法會秘書辦事處接獲的首張提名表格方為有效,臨
    時立法會秘書須隨即把失效的表格送回提名人。

    5.截止提名後,臨時立法會秘書須擬備一份名單,按
    其接獲有效提名表格的先後次序列出所有候選人的姓
    名,並於選舉日至少兩整天前將名單分發給臨時立法
    會所有議員。

    6.選舉主席時,主持選舉的議員須宣布接獲的全部有
    效提名。

    7.如只有一項有效提名,則主持選舉的議員須如是宣
    布,並宣布該名候選人當選。

    8.如有兩項或更多的有效提名,則主持選舉的議員須
    宣布以不記名的方式進行投票,並指示螳犮萿k會秘
    書發給每名出席會議的議員一張選票,選票的格式
    如附件II所示。所有候選人的姓名須按螳犮萿k會秘
    書辦事處接獲提名的先後次序,列於選票上。

    9.每名出席會議的議員只須在選票上其屬意的候選
    人姓名旁邊的空格內劃上「」號,並將選票放進投
    票箱。任何未劃上「 」號或劃有多於一個「 」號
    的選票,將會作廢。

    10.所有出席會議的議員投票後,螳犮萿k會秘書
    須在全體出席會議的議員面前點算選票,並向主
    持選舉的議員報告點票結果;該名主持選舉的議
    員須核對點票結果,予以確說。

    11. 主持選舉的議員須宣布各候選人之中獲最高
    票數的一名候選人當選為螳犮萿k會主席。

    12.如兩名或以上候選人獲相同最高票數,則主
    持選舉的議員須命令在同一次會議上,按上文
    第8至11段所規定的方法,對該等候選人進行第
    二輪投票。

    13.如在第二輪投票中未有一名候選人獲得的票
    數較其他任何候選人為高,則主持選舉的議員
    須宣布其將以抽籤方式決定如何對此輪投票中
    獲相同最高票數的候選人投決定性的一票。

    14.主持選舉的議員將隨即進行抽籤,並按結果
    對其中一名候選人投決定性的一票。主持選舉
    的議員須隨即宣布該名候選人當選為臨時立法
    會主席。

    15.隨後,主持選舉的議員須讓位予臨時立法會
    主席。臨時立法會主席可向臨時立法會陳詞,然
    後視乎情況,著手處理會議事項、宣布休會、或
    暫停舉行會議。

    附件I

    致:臨時立法會秘書

    臨時立法會主席選舉
    提名表格


    1.本人謹按照《議事規則》第4(1)條及附表所規定
    的臨時立法會主席選舉程序,提名 議員於
    (日期)起為臨時立法會主席。

    姓 名簽 署
    提名的議員
    附議的議員 (最少三名)


    日期:

    2.本人謹此接受提名。

    姓 名簽 署
    獲提名的議員
    日期:


    附件II

    臨時立法會主席選舉
    選票
    選舉日期:
    只可選一名候選人
    請在屬意的候選人
    姓名旁邊的空格內
    劃上「」號

    候選人姓名
    1.

    2.

    3.

    4.

    5.



    註:如候選人的數目少於或多於五名,則選
    票的最終格式會作相應修改。";

    (B)in the English version -

  1. by deleting Rule 2(3) and (4);

  2. in Rule 4(1), by deleting "the President shall be elected by and from among the Members" and substituting "if the office of the President becomes vacant, there shall be an election of the President by and from among the Members in accordance with the Schedule";

  3. in Rule 7 - >
    1. in the heading, by deleting "Legislature" and substituting "Provisional Legislative Council";

    2. in subrule (1), by deleting "Legislature" and substituting "Provisional Legislative Council";

    3. in subrule (2), by deleting "Legislature" and substituting "Provisional Legislative Council";
  4. in Rule 9, by adding -

    "(4)A public officer may be invited by any other committee or subcommittee of the Council to attend the meeting of the committee or the subcommittee if circumstances so require.";

  5. in Rule 10(3), by deleting "Administrative Secretary" and "Secretary of Justice" and substituting "Chief Secretary for Administration" and "Secretary for Justice" respectively;

  6. in Rule 18(1)(e), by deleting "select";

  7. in Rule 29, by adding "or a committee of the whole Council" before "unless";

  8. in Rule 42(a), by adding "properly attired and" before "with decorum";

  9. in Rule 73(3), by deleting everything after "of a chairman" and substituting ", deputy chairman and 5 members who shall be Members appointed by the President in accordance with an election procedure determined by the House Committee. In the event of the temporary absence of the chairman and deputy chairman, the committee may elect a chairman to act during such absence. The chairman and 2 other members shall constitute a quorum.";

  10. in Rule 74 -
  1. in subrule (1)(e), by deleting "84" and substituting "85";

  2. in subrule (2), by deleting everything after "of a chairman" and substituting ", deputy chairman and 5 members who shall be Members appointed by the President in accordance with an election procedure determined by the House Committee. In the event of the temporary absence of the chairman and deputy chairman, the committee may elect a chairman to act during such absence. The chairman and 2 other members shall constitute a quorum.";
  1. by adding -

    "74A. Committee on Rules of Procedure

    (1)There shall be a committee to be called the Committee on Rules of Procedure to review the Rules of Procedure of the Council and the Committee system, and to propose to the Council such amendments or changes as are considered necessary. The committee may examine matters of practice and procedure relating to the Council referred by the Council or its committees or the President, or raised by its own members.

    (2)The Committee shall consist of a chairman, a deputy chairman and 10 members who shall be Members appointed by the President in accordance with an election procedure determined by the House Committee. The President may be invited to attend its meeting to advise on matters of practice and procedure relating to the Council. In the event of the temporary absence of the chairman and deputy chairman, the committee may elect a chairman to act during that absence. The chairman and 3 other members shall constitute a quorum.

    (3)The committee shall sit at the time and the place determined by the chairman. Written notice of every meeting shall be given to the members at least 5 clear days before the day of the meeting but shorter notice may be given in any case where the chairman so directs.

    (4)Meetings need not be held in public and the committee shall report from time to time its deliberations and may make recommendations to the Council.

    (5)All matters before the committee shall be decided by a majority of the members voting. In the event that votes are equally divided, the chairman or other member presiding shall have a casting vote.

    (6)Subject to these Rules of Procedure, the practice and procedure of the committee shall be determined by the committee.";

  2. in Rule 78(2), by adding", deputy chairman" after "the chairman";
  3. in Rule 79(3), by adding "and deputy chairman" after "the chairman";
  4. in Rule 81 -

    (a)by re-numbering the Rule as Rule 81(1);

    (b)by adding-

    "(2)Any member of the committee who fails to comply with subrule (1) may be admonished or reprimanded by the Council on a motion to that effect.";

  5. in Rule 82, by deleting "as a legal practitioner" and substituting "in a professional capacity";
  6. in Rule 85, by deleting "82" and "83" and substituting "83" and "84" respectively;
  7. by adding -

"SCHEDULE

(Rule 4(1))

Procedure for the

Re-election of the President of the Provisional Legislative Council

The re-election of the President of the Council shall be conducted if the office is vacant.

2.Not less than seven clear days before the day of the election, the Clerk to the Council shall invite Members to make nominations for the office of President and distribute the nomination forms as provided in Annex I.

3.A nomination form for the office of President shall be signed by a Member making the nomination and by at least three other Members seconding the nomination. The Member being nominated shall sign on the form to indicate acceptance of the nomination. The completed nomination form shall reach the Clerk's office at least four clear days before the day of the election.

4.The name of a Member shall not appear on more than one nomination form, whether in the capacity as a Member being nominated, or as a Member making the nomination, or as a Member seconding the nomination. In the event that a Member's name appears on more than one nomination form (whether in the capacity as a Member being nominated or as a Member making the nomination, or as a Member seconding the nomination) only the first such nomination form received by the Clerk's office shall be valid and the Clerk shall immediately return any invalid form to the Member who made the nomination.

5.Upon the close of the nomination period, the Clerk shall prepare a list of all the valid nominations in the order of receipt by his office and shall distribute the list to all the Members of the Council at least two clear days before the day of the election.

6.At the election of the President, the Presiding Member shall announce all the valid nominations received.

7.If there is only one valid nomination, the Presiding Member shall announce this and declare the candidate elected.

8.If there are two or more valid nominations, the Presiding Member shall order a vote by secret ballot and shall direct the Clerk to distribute to each of the Members present a ballot paper which shall be in accordance with the form in Annex II. The names of all the candidates shall be listed in the ballot paper according to the order of receipt of their nominations by the Clerk's office.

9.Each Member present shall mark a "u" only in the box opposite the name of the candidate of his choice on the ballot paper, and place the ballot paper into the ballot box. Any ballot paper not marked or marked with more than a "u" shall be discarded.

10.After all the Members present have cast their votes, the Clerk shall count the ballot papers in front of all the Members present and report the result to the Presiding Member who shall check the result for confirmation.

11.The Presiding Member shall declare elected as the President the candidate who receives the highest number of votes among all the candidates.

12.If two or more candidates receive the same highest number of votes, the Presiding Member shall order a second round of voting at the same meeting in respect of these candidates, to be conducted in the same manner as provided in paragraphs 8 to 11 above.

13.If no one candidate obtains more votes than any other candidate in the second round of voting, the Presiding Member shall announce that lots will be drawn by him to decide how he shall give the casting vote in respect of the candidates who received the same highest number of votes in this round of voting.

14.The Presiding Member shall then draw lots and give the casting vote to one of the candidates in accordance with the result of the drawing of the lots. The Presiding Member shall forthwith declare that candidate elected as the President.

15.The Presiding Member shall then step down to make way for the President, who may address the Council and shall then proceed with the business of the meeting or adjourn the meeting or suspend the meeting, as the case may be.

Annex I

To: Clerk to the Provisional Legislative Council

Election of the President of the Provisional Legislative Council

Nomination Form

1.In accordance with the election procedure prescribed under Rule 4(1) of and the Schedule to the Rules of Procedure, I nominate the Honourable ____________________________ for the office of President of the Provisional Legislative Council commencing _________________________(date).

NameSignature
Member making the nomination_______________________________

Members seconding the nomination (at least three) _______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

_______________________________

Date : _________________

2.I accept the nomination.

NameSignature
Member being nominated_______________________________
Date: _________________

Annex II

Election of the President of Provisional Legislative Council

Ballot Paper

Date of election: ______________________

VOTE FOR ONE CANDIDATE ONLY

MARK "u" IN BOX OPPOSITE

NAME OF CANDIDATE OF YOUR CHOICE

Name of candidate

1

2

3

4

5

Note: If there are more or less than five candidates the final form of the Ballot Paper will be amended accordingly."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mrs Selina CHOW to amend the Rules of Procedure of the Provisional Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region as set out in the Appendix to the Agenda, be approved.

Does any Member wish to speak?

(No Member indicated his wish to speak)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the motion is approved.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Motion on the Dissolution of the Working Group on Rules of Procedure. Mrs Selina CHOW.

DISSOLUTION OF THE WORKING GROUP ON RULES OF PROCEDURE

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that the motion to dissolve the Working Group on Rules of Procedure (the Working Group) as set out in the Agenda be approved. Since this Council has already approved that the provision for setting up a Committee on Rules of Procedure be made for the Rules of Procedure, the Working Group considers that a motion to dissolve the Working Group should be proposed so that the new Committee can be set up as soon as possible to take over the duties of the Working Group.

Madam President, since the establishment of the Working Group on 22 February 1997, a total of 14 meetings have been held to study and draft all the matters related to the procedures of meetings and the modes of operation for the Provisional Legislative Council. In the course of work, we have tried our best to take into consideration Members' different opinions and made reference to the manner of procedures of other places in order to draw up a set of rules that suits Hong Kong and conforms with both the Basic Law and the decision of the Preparatory Committee. Today, the Working Group has finished all its work and I would like to, on behalf of members of the Working Group, extend our thanks to Members of this Council for their support of our work.

I urge Members to support my motion. Thank you, Madam President.

Mrs Selina CHOW moved the following motion:

"That the Working Group on Rules of Procedure set up by this Council on 22 February 1997 be dissolved."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the Working Group on Rules of Procedure set up by this Council on 22 February 1997 be dissolved.

Does any Member wish to speak? Mr Edward HO.

MR EDWARD HO (in Cantonese): Madam President, I am not against the dissolution of the Working Group. I just think we should put down on record that we would like to thank the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW for heading the Working Group as well as to thank all its members because I myself think that the Working Group has actually done a lot of work, both in Shenzhen in Hong Kong. We should be grateful to them.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the motion is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Two motions with no legal effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee as to the time limits on speeches for the motion debates. The movers of the motions will each have 15 minutes for their speeches including their replies, and another five minutes to speak on the proposed amendments. Other Members, including the movers of the amendments, will each have seven minutes for their speeches. Under Rule 37 of the Rules of Procedure, I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First motion: Designating Teacher's Day. Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung.

DESIGNATING TEACHER'S DAY

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, today is 10 September, the Teacher's Day in China. Across the country, tens of millions of teachers are celebrating their own festival. At the same time, an education delegation from Hong Kong has flown to Beijing to take part in the Teacher's Day activities there. Likewise, in Hong Kong, 16 educational organizations are going to, of their own accord, hold a thousand-guest banquet tonight in celebration of the Teacher's Day. As part of China, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) should observe this festive occasion with all the fellow workers in China. Therefore, I move in this Council today a motion debate urging the SAR Government to designate today, that is, 10 September, as Teacher's Day every year. The designation of a Teacher's Day has been receiving positive responses lately from many of my Honourable colleagues, fellow workers of the education community as well as the public and I am deeply inspired.

The designation of a Teacher's Day is certainly the wish of the general public and it is a matter of great significance. In only a few days after the school term started, I have already received numerous signatures faxed from many primary and secondary schools as well as kindergartens. There were more than 13 500 fax messages received from over 900 schools and more than 4 000 signatures from students and parents. Furthermore, many parents and citizens have signed to show their support. The responses are so enthusiastic that signatures are still flooding in by fax. The education community is all too ready for the designation of a Teacher's Day and a consensus has been reached. The purposes of doing so are to raise the professional status of teachers to the end that teaching becomes one of the most respected and most envied professions in society, and to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach great importance to education, thereby improving the quality of education and advancing the development of education.

China has all along maintained the excellent tradition of "respecting teachers and attaching great importance to education". HAN Yu, a great scholar of the Tang Dynasty, has once given a very authoritative definition of the word "teacher". He said, "A teacher is a person who propagates the doctrines, teaches the lessons and solves queries." Since teachers perform the social function of "nurturing people through education as a paragon of virtue and learning", people all over the world have great respect and admiration for them. Our forefathers said, "Heaven, earth, emperor, parent and teacher", "teachers are just like parents", "once a teacher, always a father". All these show how superior the status of teachers is.

In fact, the titles of "teacher" and "sir" have already embodied people's respect for teachers. In modern times, the metaphors of "gardener", "BO Le (who was skilled in selecting fine horses)", "silk worm in the spring", "candle" and so on are used for praising and commending the spirit and sentiment of teachers' silent cultivation, hard work, willingness to play the part as people's ladder and selfless sacrifice.

But still, in real life, there exists, not in frequently, the phenomena of inadequate respect for teachers and this is worrying indeed. Students' lack of trust in and respect for teachers would definitely affect their motivation to learn and the effect of teaching. Under such circumstances, it is obviously impossible to improve the quality of education.

The attraction of being a teacher nowadays is much less than before. Because of high working pressure and the relatively deteriorating working condition and social image, the overall wastage rate of teachers reaches 10% or so each year. Many teachers lamented that "the students are hard to teach and it is difficult to be a teacher because there are inadequate support and co-ordination from the parents and community ". At the same time, the social pressure exerted on teachers is increasing day by day. According to a comprehensive employment survey of graduates from the seven tertiary institutions in 1996, the most favoured occupations were business and professional personnel, engineer, system analyst and computer programmer as well as accountant and auditor. Teacher ranked fifth, just above clerical staff and people working in the service and production sectors. The number of university graduates taking up teaching posts has also been declining in recent years.

The designation of "Teacher's Day" can of course reverse this unfavourable situation. This is because the uplifting of teachers' professional status and improvement of their social image will help boost their morale and motivate their initiative, thereby attracting more young talents to join the teaching profession, and raising the quality of education.

Some of my friends indicated that they supported the designation of "Teacher's Day", but could not understand why must "Teacher's Day" be promulgated and ratified by the Government? Can it not be achieved merely by community acceptance through common practice?

In fact, education should act as the foundation for social development and it dominates the future of Hong Kong. Education involves tens of thousands of households and is one of the issues pertaining to livelihood which the citizens are most concerned with and which the SAR Government handles with priority. Expenditure on education tops the Government's expenditures and it accounts for about 21% of the total public expenditure each year. With almost 60 000 teachers and 1.3 million students in Hong Kong, the number of teachers and students in the education community is enormous. While the Government is responsible for providing good education, society is likewise responsible. If we treat Teacher's Day as other folk festivals like Valentine's Day or Father's Day, allowing it to remain as an activity held by non-governmental organizations of their own accord, it will be difficult to achieve the desirable effect of respecting the teaching profession and attaching great importance to education.

The key to re-vitalizing a nation lies in existence of talents, the key to talents lies in education, whereas the key to education lies in teachers. In his inaugural speech, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa stated that "we must have quality teachers and principals with a strong sense of mission". The designation of Teacher's Day is an important step towards this goal.

If the designation of a Teacher's Day is promulgated by the SAR Government, a strong message can also be conveyed to the whole society ─ that the SAR Government attaches importance to education. The Government's active promotion will help create a positive atmosphere of "honouring teachers and esteeming truth, honouring knowledge and honouring people of talent", thereby improving the overall quality of the community and reversing the general inclination of putting too much emphasis on money and materialism.

Respect for the teaching profession and attachment of importance to education are manifestations of the civilization and development of a country or region, and Teacher's Day is an important symbol of respect for the teaching profession and the attachment of importance to education. Teacher's Day does exist in many parts of the world. For example, France designates Christmas as Teacher's Day, India and Thailand designate 5 September and 16 January respectively as Teacher's Day. Even our neighbour, Macao, designates 10 September as Teacher's Day.

Designating a Teacher's Day is definitely a beneficial act and it will do no harm at all. All the Government needs to do is to conduct a little publicity. No resources will be needed, and neither will it involve any trouble make things complicated.

Some friends of mine are worried that if Teacher's Day is designated, people in other trades and professionals may propose one after another to designate all kinds of special days such as Clerk's Day, Lawyer's Day, Social Worker's Day and so on. I think, on the basis of the importance, extensiveness, uniqueness, and predominate status of education, we have every reason to designate a Teacher's Day. In short, the designation of Teacher's Day is particularly important and meaningful, and is widely recognized by the public. It is inappropriate to challenge the designation of Teacher's Day on the pretext that people engaged in other trades will be able to follow suit.

Now I want to explain why is 10 September chosen as Teacher's Day?

Choosing 10 September has nothing to do with politics and neither is it in breach of the principle of "one country two systems". If Hong Kong has always had its own Teacher's Day, it should certainly be retained in accordance with the principal of "one country two systems". As a matter of fact, we do not have our Teacher's Day, so why can we not choose 10 September? The SAR Government can of course fix another date, but since more and more people in Hong Kong gradually come to know that 10 September is the National Teacher's Day, many education organizations have been organizing activities to celebrate on that day. It would be quite disturbing and totally unnecessary for Hong Kong teachers to participate in Teacher's Day activities twice a year. If the two are combined together, the SAR teachers can then celebrate their own special day alongside with their counterparts in China. While this may facilitate educational interflow, the festive atmosphere can also be enhanced. There is absolutely no reason for us not to do so. Using "two systems" as an excuse to dismiss 10 September is actually going into one extreme.

Furthermore, 10 September is at the beginning of the school term. The launching of activities to honour teachers will educate the students and, at the same time, inspire the teachers. While it will not affect the busy learning schedule of the students in the middle of the term, the tense atmosphere of the end of term examinations could also be avoided. The crux of the problem does not lie in when the teachers will have leisure time. Rather, it lies in when will be the most appropriate time for these activities of educating students to respect teachers to be held.

Lastly, I would like to talk about the envisaged content of the Teacher's Day. The Teacher's Day will be a festival promulgated and ratified by the Government, but it will not be a public holiday or a holiday. On 10 September, teachers and students can organize activities to honour teachers. For example, teachers and students may have a get-together or commend teachers who have a brilliant performance. Public officers responsible for education matters in the SAR may also extend festive greetings to teachers. While the SAR Government may organize grand celebration activities to commend all the outstanding teachers in Hong Kong, all trades and professionals in the whole community can also show their respect for teachers on that day.

It will be feasible for the SAR Government to designate Teacher's Day as it is able to meet the requirements and has the foundation to do it. For instance, over the past few years, the "Teacher's Week", "Teacher's Day" and missionary schools' "Educational Sunday" and especially the fruitful work done by the Committee on Respect Our Teachers Campaign have all helped to lay a sound foundation for Teacher's Day to come into being. It can be said that the designation of Teacher's Day reflects not only the aspirations of the education community, but also the aspiration of the whole society.

We are now having a new era, a new school term and a new beginning. In the past, we did not have a Teacher's Day. But with "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong" today, we, Hong Kong people, can be our own masters completely by being the first one to introduce Teacher's Day and create a new atmosphere of "respecting the teaching profession and attaching importance to education".

I hope Members will support my motion of "Designating Teacher's Day".

Education is for the good of the society whereas society is responsible for providing education. The Government, society and everybody are all responsible for the provision of good education. I would like to take this opportunity to show our affection to and pay our respect for the teachers who sacrifice themselves silently for nurturing our students and developing their potentials!

I so submit. Thank you, Madam President.

Mr YEUNG Yiu-Chung moved the following motion:

"That this Council urges the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to designate 10 September every year as "Teacher's Day", so as to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education in the community, thereby raising the status of teachers and advancing the development of education in Hong Kong."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That this Council urges the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region to designate 10 September every year as "Teacher's Day", so as to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education in the community, thereby raising the status of teachers and advancing the development of education in Hong Kong.

Does any Member wish to speak? Mr NG Leung-sing.

MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, as far as I understand from what I have come into contact, I think it is worthwhile to designate a Teacher's Day as proposed in this motion. However, I think the designation has come too late and we may as well call it a "Belated Teacher's Day".

One of the reasons is that although Hong Kong is a melting pot of Chinese and foreigners, Chinese accounts for a very large proportion of its population. For thousands of years, the Chinese civilization has been promoting the history and culture of education promoted by famous scholars such as Confucius. The respect for the teaching profession and the attachment of importance to education have actually become the consensus of most Chinese for a long time.

The second reason is that during each of the development processes of human beings, we will essentially go through several stages of education, and, at the same time, we will essentially receive education and guidance from teachers in several stages. No matter what achievements we could have after completing our education, and no matter whether we will become a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant or an engineer, we will have experienced the process of being taught by teachers. Therefore, teachers are indeed worthy of our respect.

Madam President, I do not think it will too excessive even if the proposed motion "Teacher's Day" is changed to "Respect for Teacher's Day".

With these remarks, I support Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung's motion.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LO Suk-ching.

THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, Dr LEONG CHE-HUNG took the Chair.

MR LO SUK-CHING (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, as the Chinese saying goes, "it will take 10 years to grow a tree and a hundred years to educate a man". Educators are indeed shouldering heavy responsibilities and the road for them to accomplish their mission is long. I fully support the designation of "Teacher's Day", and support even the designation of this day as a school holiday so as to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education.

Hong Kong is an international metropolis. Under colonial rule of the British Hong Kong Government in the past, what our youngsters received was "spoon-fed" education, which emphasized the imparting of knowledge only instead of nurturing the students' moral thinking and character. The status of teachers in Hong Kong is increasingly on the decline and there is a growing tendency for students to disrespect their teachers. In order to reverse this undesirable atmosphere, it is now an opportune moment for us to designate 10 September as "Teacher's Day" by modelling on China to alert students, their parents and the public to the importance of teachers, to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education. This is also in line with what our Chief Executive, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa said: To make special efforts to nurture good Chinese traditions after Hong Kong has united with our motherland.

Hong Kong's future depends on the nurturing of the pillars of society by teachers with ideals and enthusiasm, and with a sense of dedication and commitment. Education is a "mankind's" work and a "mankind's" career. We must change the existing policies in order to attract more dedicated young people to the teaching profession.

At present, the number of graduate teachers, which account for only 30% of the total number of teachers, is far from adequate. So, some critics suggested that we should import teachers from the Mainland to make up for the shortfall. But they also worried that these teachers might not be capable of discharging their duties as their educational and social backgrounds are different from what we have in Hong Kong. As such, why do we not step up training for teachers in Hong Kong? I propose that the Hong Kong Institute of Education (HKIEd) be upgraded to a University of Education, with its academic qualifications in line with those of the existing seven universities. At present, many schools prefer recruiting university graduates to graduates from the HKIEd. However, educators are required to be well-versed in academic knowledge and update it. In addition, subjects like teaching method, educational psychology, child psychology and communication skills will contribute to teaching. As far as nurturing and education in these aspects are concerned, the HKIEd is comparatively stronger than the universities in general. So we must not overlook the status enjoyed by the HKIEd. Those students who have received conventional teacher training should be given a degree in order to enhance their social status and treatment.

Apart from upgrading teachers to degree qualification, the Government should also allocate more resources to schools, upgrade the remuneration terms in general accorded to teachers, enable subsidized school teachers to receive basically equal pay for equal work as government school teachers, reduce the workload of teachers, provide teachers with a reasonable working environment as well as offering them more time and opportunities to further their studies for self-improvement in order to keep them abreast of the times, upgrade the quality of education and enhance the promotion prospects of teachers. The Government should also encourage the launching of activities like competent teachers' elections and offer more incentives to teachers, either in the form of honour or money. This will encourage teachers to act more positively, thereby changing the way the modern society views them.

I would like to take this opportunity to make two requests to the teachers. Firstly, as Hong Kong has reunited with our motherland, I hope they can, under the principle of "one country two system", strengthen their students' understanding of our motherland. This cannot be done solely by revising textbooks and the content of curricula. The teachers might as well introduce our motherland to their students more often in the process of conducting courses and after school hours. The introduction given must assume an absolutely objective and neutral stand. In particular, the teachers should not deliberately paint an ugly picture of the situation in the Mainland from a one-sided point of view. On the other hand, teachers should pay attention to observe the principle of maintaining political neutrality. It is perfectly right and proper for teachers to promote civic education amongst students. But it will not be proper for them to forcibly instil their own political convictions or sense of values in their students. We must nurture our next generation in a way that they can think independently. Next year, a series of elections will be held. There were previous cases in which some teachers lobbied their students, even primary students, to encourage their parents to vote to support certain candidates and it seemed that there were cases in which primary students led their parents to vote. I think such a practice should be strictly curbed and the Education Department should also be concerned about undesirable practices as such.

Mr Deputy, with these remarks, I support the motion.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Peggy LAM.

MRS PEGGY LAM (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, the major premise of the present motion is "to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education in the community, thereby raising the status of teachers and advancing the development of education in Hong Kong." I fully agree with the designation of a "Teacher's Day" as proposed by the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung. As he has listed in detail the significance of designating a "Teacher's Day", I do not wish to repeat it. However, I would like to look into this issue from another point of view. I think we need to, starting from the current situation of teachers, get to the roots of some problems before we can achieve the ideal premise that we have set.

First of all, how do members of the community and the Government assess the status of the teaching profession? I definitely believe that being educators, teachers in Hong Kong are enthusiastic about providing quality education. However, it is regrettable that due to various reasons in the course of operation, their enthusiasm was dampened and they were disappointed and frustrated as well.

Let me give a few examples to show how teaching is not recognized as a conventional profession. Let me start from the work level. Apart from performing their basic teaching duties, teachers (I am talking about the situation in primary schools) have to deal with a large amount of clerical work, such as handling documents related to student registration, applications for travelling subsidies and so on. Such a phenomenon is attributable to the fact that planning by the Education Department (ED) is basically out of reach with reality. Under the present establishment, two clerks are provided only if the number of classes reaches 30. Since there are only 24 classes in a whole-day school, it is fundamentally impossible for such a school to be provided with two clerks. Heavy general work will only reduce the teachers' time to focus on teaching and preparing teaching materials. The proposal of fighting for one more clerk has been put forward to the ED during the last two Sessions of the Legislative Council, but it is extremely regrettable that up till now, this proposal has not been implemented.

The "school management programme", which was originally aimed at increasing teachers' participation in school management, was euphemistically described as allowing the teachers to take part in administrative work. But in reality, the teachers were asked to take up the dual role of a teacher and an administrative staff. Worse still, the authorities concerned and even the school itself only provided limited basic assistance in promoting computerization in school. In the design of the overall plan and its implementation, the teachers have to shoulder all the responsibilities, but are also left to grope their way on their own.

Of course, some people may consider that this is an advanced work arrangement. But I just cannot help asking: Have we ever seen university professors or lecturers dealing with such school work as student registration? Have we ever seen other professionals such as lawyers and accountants taking up administrative work? Have we ever seen a solicitors' firm turning over its computerization programme to its lawyers who have to grope their way on their own?

This has not only adversely affected the teaching work, but also affected the impressions of students and parents on teachers as well as damaging the teachers' professional image.

Another typical example is related to the professional status of teachers. I have talked to many teachers who said that teachers' salaries are not the lowest but the professional status which teachers deserve is extremely poor. I am sure that Honourable colleagues have also directly or indirectly heard some students' parents teach the teachers how to teach. An example is: "you should teach this before that!" On the contrary, have we ever seen patients teaching doctors how to give treatment and have we ever taught accountants how to do arithmetic?

One of the reasons for this phenomenon is that members of the community have a wrong concept about teaching, thinking that "teaching is a simple task". Some parents even consider that they are the "clients" as they think that "they spend money to send their children to school". Given the parents' way of thinking, we can well imagine what impact they will cast on their children. A combination of this mentality and behaviour of showing disrespect for the teachers have resulted in today's social atmosphere. In fostering respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education, the designation of the "Teacher's Day" will only play a very small part. Rather, the crux lies in rectifying the parents' idea towards the professional status of teachers.

In fact, as far as this problem is concerned, the ED has an unshirkable responsibility. This is because the Department has delegated too much authority to parents so that they can lodge complaints against teachers whenever they like. To impose corporal punishment on students of course is not right. However, the ED would have indulged the parents and students to challenge the professional decision of the school if the parents could even lodge complaints against the school for deciding who among the students have to repeat class, though it seems a very democratic measure to allow them to do so. If even the ED dares not uphold the reasonable and professional interests of the educational institutions and educators, it would be better to allow the students' parents to form the board of directors to decide the appointment and dismissal of principals and teachers, to guide teaching work, as well as deciding the class promotion and otherwise repetition of students. Based on the voting by the Board, all things could then be settled. This will ensure that there will be no complaints, but I am afraid that the quality of education will be much jeopardized by then.

In re-establishing parents' respect for teachers and establishing the professional status of teachers, I believe the Government should assume a greater responsibility, including encouraging, wherever possible, teachers to further their studies.

Under the present establishment of primary school teachers, the Government has only approved of five graduate teaching posts out of 34 teaching posts. As a result, it is impossible for the rest of the non-graduate teachers to receive the salary scale and the recognition enjoyed by graduate teachers even though the former have obtained a degree through further studies in their spare time. This will only deal a blow to teachers' desire to further their studies. I opine that we should not rigidly adhere to the establishment. Instead, we should let all those who have obtained degrees to receive equal and standard treatment. Although this will add to the education expenditure, we have no reason to hamper the development of education for the sake of saving money when we have $300 billion in reserves.

Finally, I suggest that the Administration should grant awards to teachers who have shown excellent performance in their jobs by extensively publicizing their teaching approaches and the educational spirit they uphold. This will not only give certain inspirations to the teachers, but also consolidate the social status of the teaching profession. Nowadays, the media will, more often than not, only put before the public the parents' dissatisfaction with the schools or teachers, lavishing harsh criticisms as well. On the contrary, they seldom praise the good teachers and their good deeds. I think it is imperative for the Government to positively and proactively strike a balance for this situation.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the motion.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs TSO WONG Man-yin.

MRS TSO WONG MAN-YIN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, by taking a broad view around the world, we can see that quite a number of countries and regions have designated a "Teacher's Day" to show respect for the teaching profession. Non-governmental organizations in Hong Kong have also time and again asked for the designation of a "Teacher's Day". Yet up to the present moment, we still fail to find any co-ordination among the government departments concerned to put this proposal into practice. This shows that the Government is still not too determined to designate a "Teacher's Day". The fundamental idea of the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung's motion is to foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education, as well as raising the social status and morale of teachers.

As time changes, the teachers' role has to be adjusted accordingly. In the past, the role played by teachers was just like an elder, who passed on professional knowledge and developed the character of his students. These were what teachers did in the past. But in the 90's, our social structure has become increasingly complicated and a lot of educational problems have emerged. Teachers are no longer confined to giving lectures. They have to pay attention to their students' family problems, emotional problems and development problems as well. Teachers cannot just stand on the rostrum to give lectures as what they did in the past. At the same time, they have to play the role of a friend or a social worker to give guidance to their students patiently and help them solve their emotional problems.

Having worked in a university for more than 20 years, I witnessed the changes of how university graduates view the teaching profession. In recent years, I even heard some graduates put up the question why a university graduate has to be as degraded as a teacher. From the response of these students, we can observe the change of the teachers' social status.

Apart from that, I would like to talk about the teaching environment and the quality of work. As a member of the education sector, I understand that the pressure of teaching does not come from students with problems alone. In fact, a much greater form of pressure comes from the education system itself. A moment ago, an Honourable Member mentioned that teachers have to take up a lot of trivial administrative work. But on the other hand, because of the Target-Oriented Curriculum, many teachers have to spend a lot of time in preparing and compiling teaching reports. These reports, which are mere paperwork, are to be submitted to the authorities concerned. As a result, teachers will have less time to give counselling and make contact with students. In my opinion, these strenuous but trivial administrative work, as well as some unnecessary clerical work, constitute the main reason for the declining morale of teachers. Some of my colleagues even said that we were not actually doing our proper business.

One solution to reduce teachers' working pressure is to reduce the class size. I think the Government should provide more resources to enable the school to employ administrative personnel specializing in school administration. This can relieve the teachers' burden of doing administrative work so that they can concentrate on teaching and counselling their students and they will have more time to give full play to their expertise to nurture our next generation. I believe this will certainly enhance the morale of the teachers.

Undoubtedly, the designation of "Teacher's Day" will, to a certain extent, serve as a recognition of teachers' importance and contribution. However, we can not elevate the teachers' status by solely relying on the designation of a "Teacher's Day". Instead, we should formulate a specific and effective system in concrete terms to raise their status. In order to attract more people who aspire to become teachers to join the teaching profession, we should formulate a reasonable establishment for teachers so as to offer more promotion prospects to qualified teachers and reward outstanding teachers in a substantive manner. This will also prevent teachers from losing initiatives or interests in doing their work. The designation of "Teacher's Day" will foster respect for the teaching profession and attach importance to education in the community. This will also tie in with a major review on education framework to be conducted by the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government for the formulation of a comprehensive plan and injection of sufficient resources to enhance the quality of education.

Mr Deputy, with these remarks, I support the designation of "Teacher's Day".

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, regarding the proposal of designating a "Teacher's Day", the Liberal Party feels that it does have a symbolic meaning while arousing public awareness, and there is no reason for us to raise objection. However, what we need to consider is: what is the meaning of promulgating a special day? As the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung has just mentioned, we now have a number of festivals which were promulgated by the Government upon our request. But the Teacher's Day is not going to be promulgated as a public holiday (of course, we object to this idea), so where does the significance of designating a Teacher's Day lie? What Mr YEUNG meant is the Government may arouse some responses and awareness from the public if it takes the lead. In my opinion, there is one very important point and that is even though the Government takes the lead, a certain degree of freedom should be given to people working in the education sector to decide how to go about it and to respond to it. Anyhow, the designation of Teacher's Day is definitely a meaningful move.

However, can we solely rely on the designation of a Teacher's Day to achieve the objective of "fostering respect for the teaching profession and raising the status of teachers", as is mentioned in the motion? Is it going to help improve teacher training and establish the teachers' status in the long term? We opine that this is not necessarily going to happen. It is feasible to commend a certain profession and arouse public awareness through designating a special day. But how effective will that be? In our opinion, it is not possible to rely solely on a special day to achieve long-lasting and profound effects.

We all know that with an increase in the places available at tertiary institutions, the standard of the Colleges of Education once declined. In response, the Education Commission established the Hong Kong Institute of Education in the hope that teachers' quality and professional standard can be raised by doing some more work. However, while we are devoting our efforts to make improvements, we should not neglect those teachers who have been in service for a long time. Because of various historical reasons, their standard fall short of the expectation of the community. So, on-the-job training is very important to them, particularly for non-graduate teachers. I believe the problem we must face is how to enable them to "get on the car" midway to pursue a degree course.

Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, the Chief Executive, has stated that he would like to see a gradual increase in the number of graduate teachers. I hope the Government is not simply aiming at providing more technical training to the teachers through the provision of degree courses. Instead, through university education, I hope training can be provided so that the trained teachers will be able to think independently, broaden their views, see things in perspective, think and develop with a cosmopolitan viewpoint in terms of cultural exchanges and communication in various aspects, as well as achieving the best educational effect by thinking in a flexible manner and by means of objective analysis.

We hope that each and everyone of our teachers can be a good teacher as well as a good friend whom we can rely on. Such a person should not only confine himself to imparting knowledge, though this is very important. Of course, we have heard a lot of people say and even complain that the academic level of some teachers may not necessarily be up to our requirements. But what is equally important to me and what we are lacking at the moment is whether the teachers really have a certain degree of love and care for their students, and what I mean is the relationship between teachers and students. I think this is an area we should look into carefully. Recently, there was an alarming case involving a tutorial institution. In this incident, we note that students regard their tutors as their idols and the situation is similar to the adoration of pop idols. Although we do not want to encourage such an atmosphere, I think all teachers should make a review on themselves and think hard: why does such a phenomenon exist? Why are tutors of tutorial institutions being treated like idols while they are not being treated likewise? I think they really have to think about it.

Regarding the recent issue of recruiting teachers from overseas, a lot of people have voiced strong opposition. The Liberal Party does not necessarily share their entire views because we think that additional recruitment of foreign teachers in an appropriate number may improve the overall teaching and education standards as long as they are able to fulfil our academic requirements. We will not object strongly to it. We even hold that these teachers can broaden the vision and deepen the understanding of the students.

With these remarks, I support the motion.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHOY Kan-pui.

MR CHOY KAN-PUI (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, it is a time-honoured tradition in Chinese society to promote respect for teachers and their teaching because education holds the key to the future of the society. Teachers have been enjoying a high status because their duty is to enlighten students and through education, they can nurture the future pillars needed by the society. These people will in turn become our vast manpower resources and give an impetus to the prosperity of our community. However, over the past hundred years or so when Hong Kong was under British colonial rule, education provided to Hong Kong people was in lack of a clear direction. The young generation has little knowledge of the good Chinese tradition of respecting teachers and their teaching. Most students who are educated in Hong Kong are pragmatic. As far as their outlook on life is concerned, they are followers of individualistic hedonism. They put money on top of everything and are eager to speculate in order to make quick cash. In recent years, particularly because of the former British Hong Kong Government's reckless and one-sided promotion of human rights and freedoms, teachers easily fall prey to casual accusations of imposing corporal punishment on students. The naughty students would then have nothing to fear and they completely ignore their teachers. Under such circumstances, how can a teacher maintain his dignity?

Mr Deputy, after the establishment of the SAR Government, Hong Kong has become part of China. I support that we should model on China to designate a "Teacher's Day" so that teachers in Hong Kong and the Mainland will be able to jointly celebrate their own festival. In so doing, we can foster respect for teachers and their teaching in the community, thereby encouraging the public to attach importance to the development of education. Of course, it is impossible to achieve the goal of fostering respect for teachers and their teaching simply by designating a "Teacher's Day". The most important thing is for each and every teacher to do their upmost to teach their students so as to win the respect of the community.

As a teacher, the first thing one should do is to impose strict requirements on himself. He should not regard teaching as a means to live by. Rather, he should see it as a career of developing talents. At the same time, he should be broad-minded and sensitive to knowledge, information and technology. As such, he should constantly update his knowledge so that he can lead the social trend and win the respect of the students. As the saying goes, "An accomplished disciple owes his accomplishment to his great teacher." Only when we have good teachers can we have outstanding students.

Of course, apart from the concerted efforts of teachers and students, the co-ordination of the community is also very important. Since the establishment of the SAR Government, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, the Chief Executive, has been very concerned about the education problems of Hong Kong. He once pointed out that in order to provide good education in Hong Kong, we must first of all establish a proper direction for education so that those who receive education will contribute to the society and will be patriotic, civilized and will have ideals as well as good morals. At the same time, we need to have a good team of educators. In order to achieve this goal, we need to improve the working conditions of principals and teachers and make adjustments to the existing education system accordingly. In the face of the rapid development of information, apart from formulating a strategy for comprehensive information technology education as soon as possible, we need to inject more resources in this aspect as well. I fully share these views. To raise the quality of teachers, we must develop teachers' initiative. However, many unreasonable phenomena, such as low pay and poor promotion prospects, still exist in our education system. It is therefore difficult to attract more talented young people to join the teaching profession. Hence, we must improve the working conditions of teachers, give them more support and incentives, as well as enhancing their promotion prospects in order to attract talented people to become teachers.

Mr Deputy, I hope the Chief Executive can work out a whole series of education reforms and formulate a long-term development plan as soon as possible. It is indeed a matter of urgency for us to figure out how to establish a good teaching team in order to give impetus to our education reform.

With these remarks, Mr Deputy, I support the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung's motion.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han.

MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, I myself am very much in support of the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung's motion today, and I have a lot of reflections about this. I think there is a need to promulgate a special day to affirm teachers' contribution to our society.

When Hong Kong was in economic hardship, many people in the education sector provided free schooling as the whole society was having difficulty in providing education. Of course, some of them had the support from churches, labour organizations or other bodies. Nevertheless, if they did not have the intention of serving the community, I believe there would not have been so many free schools during the hard times in the '50s and the '60s . In my opinion, some educators had really been making selfless sacrifice at that time to give poor children a lot of opportunities. As my father had a very early death, I had also faced tremendous difficulties as far as schooling was concerned. But at that time, some educators organized some correspondence courses for poor children like me, so that we could attend school after work. As we went off work at different times, we might consult the teachers or principals at different times. However, they did not mind it at all. They had indeed made a lot of contributions in developing the talent of students. It was only after the Hong Kong Government has provided nine-year free education that the situation was gradually improved.

However, when our economy is theoretically so prosperous and the Government is providing free education nowadays, what makes one feel surprising is to see what has become of our teachers in this society? Of course, the remunerations they receive today are much better than what they received in those years at the time when we were studying. However, we find that many environmental factors and circumstances will affect them in providing quality education. After listening to what the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW said, I have some reflections again. In my opinion, the teachers are not like that. It is the whole education system which has made it difficult for them. For example, teachers in half-day primary schools often complain that they need to have "7-ups", that is to say, they need to teach seven lessons in half day's time. As each lesson lasts for 35 minutes and the seven lessons are held consecutively without a break, they do not even have time to drink water. Given such limited resources, it is impossible to expect the teachers to behave to their students like a movie star. The phenomenon that tutors in certain tutorial institutions are being treated like movie stars or idols has nothing to do with the teachers. Rather, it is the problem of the whole system. Another example is a lot of staff rooms nowadays are extremely crowded. This morning I asked the legal advisor of the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) this question because he had been a teacher in primary and secondary schools. He said that the office of FTU is already very crowded, but the so-called staff rooms of many schools are even much more crowded. Consequently, teachers will have a feeling of constriction and sometimes they are unable to have a personal talk with the students even if they want to do so. This is not the teachers' fault. This is because the Government's policy attaches importance to tertiary institutions at the expense of primary and secondary schools.

Although there is a marked difference in the remunerations teachers received nowadays compared to what they received in the '50s and '60s when we were still studying, there is not much difference in many of their working conditions. For example, they have to teach seven consecutive lessons as I said earlier and space is not available for them to communicate with their students and so on. All these have not been changed even as our society changes. In my opinion, there is significance in Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung's motion to designate a "Teacher's Day" because this is a token of our regard for teachers. More importantly, I hope that the Government can change what is found unreasonable in primary and secondary schools in terms of the allocation of resources, particularly the phenomenon of half-day primary schools. In this connection, I hope that the Government can look into this situation.

I would like to tell Members one more story. I know quite a number of teachers. Their common characteristic is that they have a husky voice and some of them even have polyp in their vocal cords. I asked them the reason why. As for me, I have turned into such a plight for I have to run the election. The reason they told me is that the whole arrangement made by the Government has exerted on them an extremely great pressure and this is what they have been telling me. Another problem is in spite of the fact that they earnestly hope that they could move towards the path leading to professionalism, how much training has the Education Department been providing? How many of them could be able to pass the examination for a degree course? Mrs Selina CHOW said that teachers should be imported from overseas. But those who are in the teaching profession told me that they objected to it. In fact, they earnestly hope that they could become a graduate teacher. The problem is the Education Department has not given them an opportunity to do so. I think it is imperative for the Government to reform the system and refrain from importing teachers just like importing foreign labour. We do have very good teachers. Their greatest hope is for the Government to provide training to them so that they can get a degree on the basis of their original qualification. We can see that quite a number of teachers are now studying while they are teaching in order to obtain a degree. Their situation is really miserable. I think it is necessary for the Government to give a response in this respect and it must not tell us that it has to import teachers from overseas because the Chief Executive asked for an improvement in the quality of teachers and graduate teachers are thus needed. I object to such a way of doing things. I am very glad to hear that Mr YEUNG shared my view. If we have the manpower potentials, why do we not provide training to allow the teachers to obtain a degree instead of seeking assistance from overseas?

So, while we say that we need to designate a "Teacher's Day" today, we also hope that the Government can pay attention to the allocation of resources to primary and secondary schools and make due response to teachers' aspirations. Thank you, Mr Deputy.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YUEN Mo.

MR YUEN MO (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, education is the basis for social advancement and prosperity. So, once the SAR Government was established, the Chief Executive has placed education in a paramount position.

In my opinion, the formulation of a strategic education development plan should not only be limited to injecting more resources into the education business. We should also arouse the general concern of the public about education. This should include the fostering of respect for the teaching profession and the attachment of importance to education so that students will hold their teachers in high esteem and the teachers will care for their students. Only when the teachers are generally respected will talented young people be attracted to the teaching profession and take pride in their sacred job. In many of the advanced countries in the world, education is run comparatively well and there is respect for teachers.

On the other hand, respect for teachers has been a fine tradition for us, people of Chinese race, over the past few thousands of years. Be it an acquisition of experiences from the external world or a development of our fine tradition, to me, the fostering of respect for teachers and the attachment of importance to education is of utmost significance. It is also very important that teachers are allowed to have their own special day.

For the sake of our future, we must dedicate our efforts to nurturing the talented young people. I fully support the proposal of designating a special day for these so-called "engineers of the soul". I also support that today, 10 September, be designated as "Teacher's Day". Thank you.

DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? Secretary for Education and Manpower.

SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION AND MANPOWER (in Cantonese): Mr Deputy, may I begin by thanking the Honourable YEUNG Yiu-chung for moving the motion today. I am also grateful to Members who spoke in the motion debate just now. As we all know, the Chief Executive, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa, stated clearly in his inaugural speech on 1 July that the Government attached great importance to teachers' quality. We strongly believe that teachers' qualifications, professional and in-service training have direct bearing on the quality of education. As Members have just pointed out, designating a "Teacher's Day" will have a positive encouraging effect, arouse public awareness of the need to show respect for the teaching profession, enhance teachers' image as well as fostering teachers' dedication to their job.

To achieve quality in education, the Government is actively planning a number of specific measures to enhance the professional development, status and quality of teachers. The Education Commission (EC) has endorsed the proposal to establish a General Teaching Council (GTC). A Preparatory Committee has already been appointed to work out the detailed arrangements. The purpose of establishing a GTC is to raise the status of the teaching profession so as to be in line with other professions. The GTC will also play a vital role in improving the teaching standard, enhancing the profession development, upholding the professional ethics and boosting the morale of the teaching profession. The Preparatory Committee will consult the public on the terms of reference and detailed arrangements for the elections to the GTC. We expect that the Committee will complete public consultation in six months' time, and will finalize its recommendations on the basis of the views received. We hope that the relevant preparatory work and legislative procedure will be completed within two years.

I would like to mention some other measures to enhance teachers' quality. I also wish to take this opportunity to respond to the requests raised by several Members who urged the Government to provide additional resources and to attach greater importance to teacher training.

Firstly, the University Grants Committee (UGC) is examining how to achieve the new policy objective to require all new teachers of primary and secondary schools to have a university degree and teacher training. UGC will advise on the timetable for meeting the policy target, the financial implications, the relationship between the new policy and the development of higher education, and the future role of the Hong Kong Institute of Education. The UGC plans to complete the study in the first half of 1998. We will consider the way forward in the light of UGC's recommendations. However, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate that at the present stage, the proposal to import teachers is pure conjecture. UGC has clarified earlier that the study has not yet been completed. We will not be able to decide on the way forward until early next year. Therefore, there is no cause for concern at this stage.

Secondly, we have accepted the proposal of the Advisory Committee on Teacher Education and Qualifications (ACTEQ) to lower the salary bar for untrained secondary school graduate teachers who join the profession after 1997 from point 27 to 22, in order to encourage these teachers to receive teacher training as soon as possible.

Thirdly, we will continue to improve the qualifications and training for kindergarten teachers. We plan to require all newly appointed kindergarten principals to have completed the Certificate in Kindergarten Education Course starting the year 2004. Moreover, we will also train a total of 1 830 qualified kindergarten teachers in the next three years. The ratio of trained teachers in each kindergarten will then be increased from the present 40% to 60% by the year 2000.

Finally, ACTEQ will commission a consultancy to study factors which affect teachers' performance, including the curriculum of teacher training.

We are also very keen to enhance the image of teachers and to promote greater respect for them. The Education Department (ED) organizes a series of activities every year to this end. Since 1995 school year, the Department has been organizing a "Teachers' Week" in January every year. Notices are issued to principals urging them to encourage students to organize activities during the "Teachers' Week" to show their respect for and gratitude to their teachers.

The Committee on Respect Our Teachers Campaign was set up by ED in 1995. There are 14 education organizations helping the Department to plan and promote the many activities to enhance the teachers' image. These activities included the publication of a book entitled Celebrities' Views on Respecting Teachers; production of two series of television programmes, Brave New Teacher, which I believe, have attracted a wide audience; one 3-minute radio programme of 109 episodes called Respect Our Teachers and Love Our Students and a competition of radio script writing on the same theme. Other activities included goodwill card design competition, English writing competition and activities design competition on the theme of respecting teachers as well as cross-word puzzle competition and so on. The highlight of the "Teachers' Week" is the "Teacher Commendation Scheme". This year, 1 100 teachers nominated by primary schools, secondary schools, kindergartens and special schools received commendation in the opening ceremony of the "Teachers' Week". They were nominated by their principals, fellow teachers or students of their schools, in recognition of their contribution in various aspects, including dedication to their profession, concern and care to students, or outstanding performance in teaching and curriculum design. The ceremony was broadcast on television.

"Teachers' Week" is usually held between the end of the first-term examination and the Lunar New Year. It is because by that time the school year has started for several months and the schools' business should by then be running smoothly. Teachers and students have more time to plan the activities.

The Government fully supports the proposal of designating a "Teacher's Day" every year to boost respect for the teaching profession in the community and to raise the status of teachers, which, in the long run, will benefit the development of education in Hong Kong. We are open-minded about the date and are now seeking the views of the education sector and parents. Our main considerations are whether the chosen date allows teachers and students to fully participate in activities held in honour of our teachers, and whether the activities of the "Teacher's Day" could be complementary to those of the "Teachers' Week" and become the focus and highlight of the series of activities. Dates to be considered include 10 September (Teacher's Day in the Mainland), 12 March (Tree Planting Day), 28 September (Confucius' birthday), and a day at the end of January when the Hong Kong Teachers' Week is usually held. Today's motion debate provides a good opportunity for the Education and Manpower Bureau to listen to and gauge the views of various sectors in order to select a date for the "Teacher's Day" acceptable to all. Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung, you are now entitled to reply and you have three minutes 43 seconds out of your original 15 minutes.

MR YEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, although not much controversies has been aroused in the motion debate of "designating Teacher's Day", this well illustrates that there is a consensus among Honourable Members to support my motion. In their speeches, eight Honourable Members, namely, the Honourable NG Leung-sing, the Honourable LO Suk-ching, the Honourable Mrs Peggy LAM, Dr the Honourable TSO WONG Man-yin, the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW, the Honourable CHOY Kan-pui, the Honourable CHAN Yuen-han and the Honourable YUEN Mo, have fully affirmed this motion. In addition, the speech delivered by the Secretary for Education and Manpower and a series of measures for upgrading the teachers' image are inspiring indeed.

Of course, a special day is not going to solve all problems and the designation of "Teacher's Day" is only the first step to foster respect for the teachers and attach importance to education in the community. In future, there should be the second and the third steps to be taken and there is much to be done. Nonetheless, today is a special day. If the motion of "designating Teacher's Day" can be passed today, the meaning will be more special. I believe that the designation of "Teacher's Day" will be beneficial not only to the education sector, but also to the whole community.

These are my remarks. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: The motion moved by Mr YEUNG Yiu-chung be approved.

Will those in favour of the motion please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the motion is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second motion: Review of District Administration. Mr CHAN Choi-hi.

REVIEW OF DISTRICT ADMINISTRATION MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I rise to move the motion as set out in the Agenda.

My motion is as follows:

"That this Council proposes that the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should conduct a comprehensive review of district administration, including the roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation of the Urban Council, the Regional Council and the District Boards, so that district administration can better cater for the needs of local communities."

Local councils constitute a major component of Hong Kong's political system and play an important role in monitoring the Government, consulting the public and providing services at district level. The District Boards, which were set up by the former British Hong Kong Government, have a long history of 15 years while the Regional Council has also been established for 11 years. The Urban Council even has a long history of more than 100 years. However, review on district administration has not been conducted for many years. As far as I can remember, district administration was touched upon only in a review on the representative government conducted in 1987. However, over the past decade, there has not been any full discussion on district administration at its various levels, particularly its role, function, division of labour and resource allocation.

Madam President, I believe that demographic changes, modification in district planning and the rise of new towns have provided us a good basis for the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) to conduct a comprehensive review on district administration.

The original objective of establishing district boards in 1982 was to allow Hong Kong people to move step by step towards the direction of ruling Hong Kong through elections, to delegate the authority of district administration to lower levels gradually and to strengthen public consultation on various government policies. In fact, after five District Board elections were held in 1982, 1985, 1988, 1991 and 1994, the District Boards have indeed laid a very strong foundation in terms of public opinion. In spite of that, we note that up till now district boards are endowed with responsibilities but have no real powers. Despite their representativeness, District Boards are merely advisory bodies, providing a forum for discussing district affairs only. As a result, some even call them "chat conferences".

In the past, the British Hong Kong Government did not delegate decision-making power to the District Boards. Even though in face of important polices, the former Government only regarded the District Boards as a political showpiece. As far as resources are concerned, the allowances for District Board Members are comparatively low. At present, their monthly allowance is only slightly over $10,000 and rental allowance is slightly over $4,000. So, it is comparatively difficult to attract dedicated people to work full-time for the District Boards, not to mention hiring assistants of high calibre to assist them in carrying out their duties. In 1996-97, the 18 District Boards throughout the territory were only allocated $105 million for the implementation of environmental improvement projects and community participation schemes. On an average, each District Board was only given $6 million. Would a budget based on this sum of money produce any major effect? Is it really useful as far as district administration is concerned?

After the establishment of the SAR, appointed seats were added to the Provisional District Boards, and the longest term of office will last until the end of 1999, that is, 31 December. Now it is time to consider the future direction of the District Boards. If the SAR Government still acts like the former Government by superficially holding the District Boards with respect and treating them as advisory bodies, but in reality whittling down their powers and resources, they will only be reduced to a political showpiece or flowers on the altar which are merely for decoration and are useless. To make matters worse, if the SAR Government maintains one quarter of seats as appointed seats and keeps appointing candidates who lost in the elections as Members of the District Boards, it will only make people doubt whether the SAR Government respects public opinion and elections. In my opinion, there should not be any more appointed Members in the next term of the District Boards.

I now turn to the Urban Council and the Regional Council. At present, the jurisdiction of these two municipal Councils, ranging from environmental hygiene to culture recreation and sport, is closely related to people's livelihood and the improvement on people's quality of life. However, we note that there are some problems in the financial arrangement and organizational framework of the two Councils and this has become an object of public denunciation.

First of all, the Government deliberately pegs the financial arrangement of the two municipal Councils with government rates. Looking back at the past decade, expenditures on municipal services have been increased year after year. As the funding of the two municipal Councils comes from rates, the Government could thus argue that it has to increase the rates. Is the Government doing this to do the two municipal Councils an injustice? At present, some governmental bodies or quasi-governmental bodies, including the Hospital Authority and the Housing Authority, have their own independent operational funds and funds are set aside for them every year. Why cannot the same approach be adopted for the two municipal Councils in making financial arrangements? Is it because this is history that makes changes impossible? The former British Hong Kong Government has in fact signed an administrative memorandum with the Urban Council in 1973. I think it is now the right time to review some of the provisions of this administrative memorandum to see if they are still applicable to the present-day operation of the two municipal Councils.

Apart from that, we also note that there are problems in the co-ordination and policies of the two municipal Councils. Let me cite two examples. The first example happened quite recently when the Urban Council passed a by-law lately to provide that the burning of wax in urban parks is prohibited. Although we informed the Regional Council of this by-law, it said: "There is no need for us to follow because the provisions contained in our ordinances are already sufficient". The second example is concerned with sashimi. For quite some time, people in Hong Kong expressed grave concern about the hygiene of sashimi. The two Municipal Councils also conducted a review on this issue and looked into matters relating to policies. We found that there were discrepancies between the two municipal Councils, in terms of both the implementation date and the contents of their policies, and this has led to the phenomenon of "one street, two systems". For instance, one kind of treatment was adopted in the north of the Boundary Street and another kind of treatment was adopted in the south of the Boundary Street (that is within the jurisdiction of the Urban Council). In addition, there was also a lapse of one month between the implementation dates of the two municipal Councils. Although Hong Kong is such a small place, there exist two different sets of ordinances governing municipal matters. Why?

A few days ago, at a meeting of the Panel on Recreation and Culture, the Honourable Mrs Selina CHOW, the Honourable MA Fung-kwok and I severely criticized certain cultural policies that are in existence at the moment. At the meeting, an official from the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau said: "This is none of our business. Rather, it is a constitutional matter. The Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau is mainly responsible for co-ordinating the work of the two municipal Councils. We cannot change the present arrangement because the Urban Council and the Regional Council are both autonomous bodies and have independent structures of their own. It is difficult for us to interfere to bring about any influence." In fact, Mr MA Fung-kwok did mention that Hong Kong ranked second only to Germany in the world in terms of investment in culture and art. Why are there still so many people from the cultural and art sectors condemning the two municipal Councils for the conservatism in Hong Kong's culture? Although the Urban Council has formulated a five-year plan, it has not been put in place yet and there is no breakthrough whatsoever. I am an incumbent Member of the Urban Council. In the Provisional Legislative Council, only the Honourable MOK Ying-fan and I hold seats in three Councils or Boards at the same time. My experience from the District Board and the Urban Council tells me that the Urban Council is a bureaucratic system. It may be futile even if we make an all-out effort to effect changes. This is my personal feeling. Maybe other Members have different opinions. Recently, there were comments about the Central Library, an issue reflecting the problem of co-ordination between the Department and the Council.

Madam President, it was recently reported by the media that the SAR Government was considering to review the Urban Council and the district boards. At the same time, there were also rumours that the Chief Executive's Office had already make a denial. We will see what response the Bureau may have in connection with this issue later. It is my view that an important task for the SAR to undertake after the 1998 elections is to review the present mode of district administration again to see whether it is effective, whether there is any room for improvement, whether the role of the District Boards needs to be re-defined, whether resources need to be increased or re-distributed and so on. All these are very important indeed.

Articles 97 and 98 of the Basic Law are related to district administration. Under Article 97, district organizations which are not organs of political power may be established in the SAR, to be consulted by the government of the Region on district administration and other affairs, or to be responsible for providing services in such fields as culture, recreation and environmental sanitation. Article 98 stipulates that the powers and functions of the district organizations and the method for their formation shall be prescribed by law. According to the Basic Law, I feel that there is much room for local councils or district administration to be shaped. As long as we do not go beyond the scope of Articles 97 and 98, there is fundamentally much room for local communities or the SAR Government to manoeuvre. If the SAR Government wants to improve district administration, the primary factor for the development of grass-roots democracy is to delegate substantial decision-making power to the District Boards and provide them with sufficient resources to improve local problems. Otherwise, the function that the District Boards can perform could be very limited.

I think the Government need to look into the number and sizes of the District Boards again because the constituencies were demarcated years ago. Some constituencies, such as Kwun Tong, are very big and densely populated where there are 30 to 40 District Board Members. Other constituencies, such as Wan Chai, are very small where there are only a dozen of District Board Members. The Honourable CHAN Kam-lam, a Member of Kwun Tong District Board, told me that a lot of troubles were involved to hold a District Board meeting as it would take 90 minutes for each of the 30 members to speak for three minutes. We could see that different districts have undergone different changes over the past decade or so. So, it is necessary to review whether or not the present demarcation of boundaries is appropriate.

Many years ago, the Meeting Point proposed to merge the two municipal Councils with the District Boards and abbreviate local councils into one tier, renaming it as the City Assembly. This is of course what I opt for in my mind. However, it may be premature to make a proposal before a comprehensive review is conducted. Of course, if, after conducting the review, it is found that there is really such a need or such a combination will be beneficial to Hong Kong's district administration, then abbreviating of the various tiers into one tier may after all be accepted as a good direction.

I hope that Honourable colleagues will give more valuable comments on my motion and I also hope that we can genuinely implement "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong". With these remarks, I move the motion.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi moved the following motion:

"That this Council proposes that the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should conduct a comprehensive review of district administration, including the roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation of the Urban Council, the Regional Council and the District Boards, so that district administration can better cater for the needs of local communities."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That this Council proposes that the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should conduct a comprehensive review of district administration, including the roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation of the Urban Council, the Regional Council and the District Boards, so that district administration can better cater for the needs of local communities.

Members have been informed by circular on 5 September, that Mr CHENG Kai-nam and Mr Bruce LIU have separately given notices to move amendments to this motion. I propose to have the motion and the two amendments debated together in a joint debate.

Council shall now debate the motion and the amendments together in a joint debate. I will call upon Mr CHENG Kai-nam to speak first, to be followed by Mr Bruce LIU; but no amendments are to be moved at this stage. Members may then express their views on the motion as well as on the amendments to the motion. Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, the subject on a review of district administration is not new. In 1996, 15 years after the establishment of the district boards, the British Hong Kong Government asked for consultations on the role and duties of District Boards, but it has never consulted the public on this matter.

Reviewing district administration without extensively consulting the public is absolutely unreasonable. At present, the operation and the agenda of the two municipal Councils and the District Boards are closely related to matters of immediate concern to the six million people in Hong Kong, community facilities and living environment. According to current definition:

The two municipal Councils are mainly responsible for safeguarding environmental hygiene and public health as well as providing cultural and recreational activities, services and facilities;

The major function of the District Boards is to advise the Government on matters affecting the living environment, social facilities and communication between the public and the Government within the districts.

Judging from the above, the services provided by the two district organizations are closely linked to every aspect of people's livelihood. According to the statistics on 1995-96 expenditure, the two Councils have spent almost $10 billion on organizing various activities and implementing projects. The District Boards, on the other hand, have spent over $100 million on implementing minor environmental improvement projects and community participation schemes. Just now, the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi opined that the sum of $100 million was probably too small, but some felt that it was unnecessary to spend that $100 million. In any case, these expenditures were covered by the public money allocated by the Government.

As these are matters of people's immediate concern, involving such a large amount of public expenditure, it is natural for members of the public to ask, "Can the taxpayers' money be spent in such a way that the roles and functions of the two district organizations can be exercised effectively?" Some think that there is a possible overlapping, other say there may be wastage. This illustrates precisely that the Government should consider public opinions carefully in reviewing district administration. Besides, some people hold that more resources should be allocated while some hold that there should be no more increases. Some opine that there is no need for the two municipal Councils and the District Boards to exist anymore and some even propose a merger. There are also some people who hold that since the inclusion of the members of the two district organizations in the Election Committee of the legislature, their political status has been substantially elevated. Is it not difficult to decide which of these views is right? Concerning the question as to whether or not the two district organizations should be allowed to exist, and whether the two bodies should merge into one, we have heard a lot of views expressed by people of the political sector. But it seems that we seldom hear opinions from the public.

The Government started to consult the District Boards on district administration in 1996. Now the handover is completed, but the review report has yet to be published. Direct election was introduced into the District Boards in 1985 with a clear objective to deliberately consult the public, facilitate communication between the Government and the people, as well as encouraging the public to participate actively in community affairs through the District Boards. As the Government will invariably consult the public on the manner of election before each election is held, should it also consult the public about the functions of the successful candidates of the two municipal Councils and the District Boards and matters such as resource deployment? I, therefore, consider if the Government, when conducting its review on district administration, fails to consider carrying out consultation or fails to put an emphasis on conducting extensive consultation, the review will have lost its spirit and direction.

For the above reasons, I sought to amend Mr CHAN Choi-hi's motion. I propose my amendment because an review must not be vague or based on pre-conceived conclusion. Rather, the public should be consulted in an accurate, extensive and open manner. To be accountable to the public is the right attitude that the Government should take in dealing with any affairs that affect the public.

I do not agree with the Honourable Bruce LIU's amendment either. This is because he has been subjectively leading the question and confined it to the discussion of abbreviating or merging the two-tier system of the district organizations before the public is consulted. This will only give the public fewer choices when faced with the problems and prevent them from discussing the problems in a more objective manner.

As such, Madam President, once again I urge Honourable colleagues in this Council to support my amendment.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Bruce LIU.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, some criticized that district administration in Hong Kong is "in an overlapping and inefficient state". As the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) is newly established, it is time to propose a comprehensive review on district administration.

The Hong Kong Association for Democracy and People's Livelihood (ADPL) thinks that there are three issues which are worth discussing in reviewing the district administration system of Hong Kong:

Firstly, to review whether the existing two tiers should be merged into a single tier system. At present, the two tiers consist of the two municipal Councils and 18 District Boards. Management and services provided by these bodies are basically centred around environmental hygiene, culture and recreation activities and so on. Apart from a difference in the size of responsible districts and population distribution, the two municipal Councils and the District Boards differ in the sense that the former have decision-making powers in such aspects as culture, recreation and hygiene management while the district boards are only advisory bodies which advise government departments on issues pertaining to people's livelihood within the districts.

In a nutshell, however, the municipal Councils and District Boards deal with very similar issues. As a result, many problems are often repeatedly discussed within the two tiers and much time is wasted. Besides, there is duplication in the use of resources and the roles they play. For instance, environmental hygiene, which is a matter of concern to the District Boards, frequently involves the work of the two municipal Councils. In addition, cultural activities organized by the District Boards often overlap with the services provided by the two municipal Councils in the district. It is certainly a duplication of efforts to have two tiers of district organizations in such a small place as Hong Kong and it will lead to inefficient use of resources. To merge the two tiers into one tier system will help enhance the efficiency of district administration. Therefore, we should carefully consider this point in our review.

Secondly, to review whether the two municipal Councils and the 18 District Boards should be abbreviated into say, four to six City Assemblies for the entire territory. As the population of Hong Kong is concentrated in certain areas, the demarcation of districts is mainly artificially determined by administrative means. However, many policy issues within a district, like transportation, hygiene and community facilities, have to be considered from a bigger perspective or from the perspective of the entire territory before a more effective solution could be proposed. Therefore, it would be inopportune for such a small administrative region as a District Board to face and to deal with district issues which are becoming increasingly complicated.

Another example is that the Government often publish many consultative documents. If the government officials responsible for consulting the District Boards have to visit the 18 District Boards one by one to collect opinions, it would be a long journey to take and a laborious task to do. I heard that some government officials were scared of attending District Board meetings because of this reason. So, when reviewing district administration, we cannot but ask, "Is it necessary to set up as many as 18 District Boards in Hong Kong?"

On the other hand, the existing system of the two municipal Councils may fail to cater for different situations and needs of different districts in co-ordinating all district affairs. So, the establishment of a few, say four to six, City Assemblies will be more appropriate in dealing with district administration. And this point is worthy of serious consideration in the review.

Thirdly, to review whether decision-making powers and management functions in respect of district administration should be delegated to the regional City Assemblies. At present, the District Boards are vested with the power to discuss all matters affecting the livelihood of the people in the districts as well as all issues pertaining to territory-wide consultative policies. However, the District Boards actually carry advisory functions only and have no administrative and decision-making powers in many of the matters affecting people's livelihood in the districts. As a result, District Board Members find that they are incapable of doing anything and are frustrated in carrying out their work. On the other hand, as there is no need for them to be responsible for making decisions, there is no need for them to bear the responsibility and consequences for what they say either. As a result, they tend to engage in empty talk. In view of this, it is imperative for us to review the functions and terms of reference of the two municipal Councils and the District Boards. If new City Assemblies are to be established by means of re-organization, we should also review the functions and terms of reference of these new Assmblies. This will touch upon a more fundamental problem and that is the attitude of the central government towards district administration as to whether powers should be delegated or centralized. From the day the District Boards were established uptill this day, the District Boards have been acting merely as advisory bodies without any administrative and management powers. This is a typical model of centralization. In other words, it is a passive communication system between the upper and the lower echelons of the Government as well as a one-way communication system that goes "from the upper echelon to the lower".

However, the SAR has now entered the era of "Hong Kong people ruling Hong Kong". We should re-consider the establishment of a district administration system which is vested with decision-making powers. Under this new system, district administration should have the power to advise on central policies and the power to make decisions in relation to local affairs. Only through the making of reforms in this direction can our future district administration better cater for the social development of Hong Kong and the needs of local communities.

Madam President, the ADPL is of the opinion that the SAR Government should conduct a review of district administration in the form of a "trilogy":

  1. the SAR Government should first note and admit that there are problems in district administration in terms of its function and efficiency and reform is therefore needed;
  2. the SAR Government should publish a Green Paper on District Administration to propose reform options and consult the public extensively;
  3. the Government should, in the consultation document, propose specific reform options and choose the one which will be most conducive to an enhancement on district administration efficiency on the basis of extensive public consultation.

The ADPL puts forward this proposal in the hope that Members will further discuss it in addition to proposing a review.

Madam President, these are my remarks.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Members wish to speak? Mr LAU Wong-fat.

MR LAU WONG-FAT (in Cantonese): Madam President, the direction and arrangements for district administration in Hong Kong have been debated time and again before and after the establishment of the two-tier system of the district organizations. For many years, numerous comments and proposals have been put forward by various sectors of the community. It can be said that issues pertaining to the roles, functions, division of labour and allocation of resources of the two municipal Councils and the District Boards as well as whether the two tiers should be merged have been fully debated. At this moment, I do not see anything new or any urgency in bringing up this old issue again.

The SAR was only established two months ago and there are a lot of issues, such as problems related to the illegal entry of Mainland children, housing, boat people and preparatory work for the elections of the first legislature, that the SAR Government needs to deal with urgently. To solve these problems speedily and satisfactorily is of paramount importance to the well-being of Hong Kong people and the smooth operation of the SAR Government.

According to a decision made by the Preparatory Committee, the Provisional Legislative Council has seven duties. These include the enactment of laws that are essential under the Basic Law in safeguarding the normal operation of the SAR as well as the handling of matters which must be dealt with by the Provisional Legislative Council before the formation of the first legislature of the SAR. From whatever viewpoint we look at it, the review of district administration is definitely not a key scope of work for this Council.

Madam President, as I said just now, the SAR has been established only two months ago and the requirements for "one country, two systems" and "Hong Kong's social system to remain unchanged for 50 years" have just been put into practice. As we are still striving for a smooth continuation of the original system, it is indeed not an opportune time to rush into any casual change now. Moreover, what is the big issue that has occurred in connection with the operation of district administration and the two-tier system which necessitates an urgent and comprehensive review? I do not see any convincing argument at all in this aspect.

At present, the two tiers have not yet had an opportunity to launch into full operation in the SAR. It is therefore neither objective nor pragmatic for us to propose a comprehensive review at this stage. Furthermore, we should deal with things in order of importance and urgency. Unless we are debating for the sake of debating and reviewing for the sake of reviewing, I cannot see there is any need to have a comprehensive review at this stage. In my opinion, we should wait until the formation of the first legislature before we propose to the Government for a review of district administration. It will then be more appropriate for Members of the first legislature to conduct more research and study before they decide whether a review should be proposed.

Madam President, these are my remarks.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Allen LEE.

MR ALLEN LEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all, I would like to point out that regarding the motion proposed by the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi in respect of the review of district administration and the amendments proposed by the Honourable CHENG Kai-nam and the Honourable Bruce LIU, I hold the similar view that we have to consult the public whatever the subject of our review will be. In my opinion, Mr Bruce LIU's amendment has a clearer direction. Should the two-tier system of the district organizations be merged into a single tier system? May I now express the Liberal Party's view on district administration.

The SAR Government has now come into existence. With the establishment of the SAR Government, the appointment system was reinstated in district organizations. Should this be reviewed? I think it is absolutely necessary to do so for I wonder what will happen after 1999. A review is warranted as to whether there should still be appointed members. The Liberal Party's stance is that there is a definite need to conduct a review of district administration no matter we like it or not.

In 1981, District Boards were established for the 18 districts set up during that time. I was the only Legislative Councillor who volunteered to be a District Board Member. I told Mr MacLEHOSE, the then Governor, that I would like to see how the District Boards operated. I was then appointed as a Sham Shui Po District Board Member for a term of one year. Since the appointment system was introduced, I could see that the District Boards had made substantial reform with all Members returned by election. Five years later, the Government considered that a municipal council, namely the Regional Council, should be set up in the New Territories to deal with municipal issues, just like what the Urban Council did in the urban area. All along I have a lot of differing opinions about the two municipal Councils for they particularly act as autonomous kingdoms in their financial arrangements. I would like to propose here that we should conduct a review (I have made such a proposal in a debate held in this Council before). Even the huge government budget is subject to the scrutiny of the Finance Committee (FC) of the Legislative Council every year. Why does the FC not have any power to examine the financial arrangement of the two Councils? Frankly speaking, the public is not entirely satisfied with such arrangements as the two Councils' budgets are not small. So I have all along held the view that we should conduct a review in this respect.

There is also a need for review as to whether the two municipal Councils should be merged. Although the two municipal Councils operate much in the same manner, we note that there is in fact some wastages as far as the use of resources is concerned. For example, the two municipal councils are still gravely concerned about the recent O-157 virus incident and they both asked government officials to spend the same amount of time on reviewing the same issue for each of them. Can resources be pooled together? In my opinion, these issues should be reviewed in an objective manner. According to my knowledge, the two Councils adopt different licensing systems. As pointed out by Mr CHAN Choi-hi, the two Councils differ from each other even in the issue of licences for sashimi and sushi shops. This is even harder for the public to understand and they will naturally ask why. It is said that one licensing system works faster than the other licensing system by one double. In other words, the Regional Council can issue a licence six months earlier than the Urban Council. Why? I think we, as politicians, should review the functions of these works in an objective manner.

Regarding Mr Bruce LIU's proposal as to whether the two municipal Councils should be merged into a single council, I think this is a highly political issue. We should understand very well that such a review cannot be completed overnight. At the same time, what we are talking about is a political reform and no political reform should be divorced from the aspirations of the community and the social trend. So I support that the Government should at this stage conduct an in-depth study and at the same time publish a consultation document. Whatever result may be, it is another matter. What the Government should review is: Is our district administration wasting our resources? Is it possible for us to do better? Can we gain more support from the public? I think both the original motion and the two amendments deserve the Liberal Party's support.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr WONG Siu-yee.

MR WONG SIU-YEE (in Cantonese): Madam President, Hong Kong's two-tier district organizations, that is the two municipal Councils and the District Boards, have been developing at different paces and with different historical backgrounds.

The Urban Council has the longest history. Formerly it was called the Health Bureau. At the early stage of its establishment, it was mainly responsible for matters concerning environmental hygiene. In 1935 it was formally re-named the Urban Council and its jurisdiction was also gradually extended to cover various issues pertaining to culture, recreation, sports, hygiene and so on, which are closely related to people's livelihood. The Urban Council can be said to have made the greatest contribution in clearing Hong Kong of its notorious name as being a "cultural desert", in upgrading people's quality of life and improving environmental hygiene of society. It has also brought the effectiveness and functions of an Assembly into full play.

Relatively speaking, the District Boards have a shorter history. They were set up in pursuance of the White Paper on District Administration in Hong Kong 1981 and under the District Boards Ordinance. Some commented that the emergence of District Boards was closely linked with the British Government's pre-retreat preparation for setting up a representative government. No matter what, the establishment of District Boards did encourage a group of people who vowed to take part in politics to devote themselves to social services, bringing vitality and vigour to community work.

The Basic Law has also affirmed the role played by district organizations. According to Article 97, district organizations which are not organs of political power may be established in the SAR, to be consulted by the Government of the Region on district administration and other affairs, or to be responsible for providing services in such fields as culture, recreation and environmental sanitation. But the Basic Law has not provided for the framework for the constitution of the district organizations. This is why some Members proposed to abbreviate and merge the two tiers into a single tier apart from conducting a comprehensive review on district administration.

The Hong Kong Progressive Alliance holds no objection to conducting a review on district administration. In fact, all systems should be reviewed from time to time in the light of the actual situation. However, to make an arbitrary conclusion that the two tiers should be abbreviated or merged into a single tier before conducting a comprehensive review will definitely affect the objectivity of the review. So, we agree that before conducting a review, we should be open-minded and consult the public extensively and openly to study objectively the two tiers in terms of their roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation. Only in so doing will the review proposals tally with the reality and embrace opinions from all sides.

Within the two tiers, the terms of reference of the two municipal Councils are comparatively simple. They are responsible for dealing with such territory-wide municipal affairs as the management of environmental sanitation, hawkers, parks, public recreation grounds as well as the promotion of cultural and recreational activities.

Under the District Boards Ordinance, the functions of a District Board include five items of work: 1. to improve the well-being of the people in the District; 2. to monitor and assess public facilities and services quality within the District; 3. to organize community activities financed by public funds; 4. to undertake environmental improvements within the District with funds allocated by the Government; and 5. to organize cultural and recreational activities within the District with funds allocated by the Government.

There are indeed some comments from the community that the District Boards and the two municipal Councils overlap in dealing with some of the work related to environmental sanitation, cultural and recreational activities. The Government may have to submit the same issue or the same document to the two tiers for discussion separately, thus resulting in wastage of resources and manpower. This phenomenon is worth reviewing indeed.

In respect of cultural and recreational activities, the District Boards allocate 30% to 50% of its total funds for organizing these activities. This reflects that these activities are generally welcome by local communities. However, these activities also fall into the key scope of work of the two municipal Councils. It is therefore almost inevitable for the two tiers to overlap their work in organizing cultural and recreational activities. In reviewing the division of labour between the two tiers, we should also discuss this point seriously.

Insofar as resource allocation between the two tiers is concerned, there is also a great difference. The funding of the two municipal Councils mainly come from rates and licence fees. In recent years, the funding of the two Councils has soared in line with substantial increases in rates in the light of the constant re-assessment of rental value as a result of the constant rise in property prices. This is in sharp contrast with the District Boards which rely only on fixed funding from the Government. The Urban Council can set aside a huge sum of money for sponsoring first-class overseas philharmonic orchestras and ballet companies to perform in Hong Kong. It can also lavish money like water on the study of modernized toilets. On the contrary, the District Boards need to provide a huge amount of district services within a very tight budget. It is really ironical by comparing the two. In reviewing district administration, allocation of resources should be studied in detail.

Concerning the division of labour between the two tiers, the SAR Government should conduct a comprehensive review at a suitable time. The Hong Kong Progressive Alliance thinks that as the SAR Government has just been established, it will achieve a positive effect in stabilizing society if we can maintain the original structure as far as possible and refrain from making hasty changes. In fact, the decision to abolish any one of the two tiers will definitely produce a severe shock to society, and this may lead to unbearable consequences. Besides, we do not see any practical need to get rid of any one tier immediately. So, we agree that we should first consult the public extensively before formulating the future development of district administration. This will better cater for the need of our social development.

Madam President, these are my remarks.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHIM Pui-chung.

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, some measures adopted by the Provisional Urban Council and the Provisional Regional Council have all along been subject to the people's concern and queries. This is understandable. The Honourable LAU Wong-fat, as Chairman of the Regional Council, naturally needs to provide a series of explanations as what he did just now. How can we expect him to admit that members of the Regional Council are not doing their job good enough? If he really did so, he would be unable to serve as Chairman anymore. Under such circumstances, he could only say that the Provisional Legislative Council has only very limited time to conduct a review. However, I think he would also agree despite the fact that there are more than two years to go before the current term of the Provisional Regional Council expires, a review is definitely appropriate to the current situation of Hong Kong. Of course, a recent movement launched in Taiwan calling for "the abolishment of the Taiwan Province" was strongly opposed by the local people ─ it can be seen that political motive and other objective factors were involved in this case.

We understand that for the purpose of holding the first Legislative Council election in Hong Kong, the original 18 districts will be re-divided into five districts. In other words, District Boards will also evolve into this model in future. Therefore, I consider that the holding of consultations or discussion about the reorganization, or the formation of a committee to study this matter complements the situation of Hong Kong in future.

Honourable colleagues should have noted just now that rates payable by some members of the public have increased as a result of the rise in rates and property prices. After all, most of the money spent by the two municipal Councils comes from rates. With sufficient funds, the two Councils have been spending money very loosely and this was seriously queried by the people. As such, Madam President, like the Liberal Party, I support the motion for today as well as its two amendments and I hold no objection to the review. It is simply impossible not to allow a review even. It is quite another matter regarding what changes would be brought after the review. Today, I would like to take this opportunity to examine the two municipal Councils and other structures. I even consider that the whole SAR Government and part of its administrative organs need to be reviewed and discussed too. I remember that the former Secretaries, who are now the incumbent Secretaries, told me that Mr PATTEN had worked very hard in leading them. But I have discovered something from three recent incidents. First, when Mr PATTEN came to Hong Kong in 1992, he deliberately brought with him a team of photographers to work for him with motives. Of course, I am now explaining, as a side issue, we have reasons to examine government organizations just as we have reasons to discuss the structure of the municipal Councils. Secondly, Mr PATTEN criticised some Secretaries for what they did when they were in their posts. Thirdly, it was reported in the newspaper that he had taken away a pack of silverware which belonged to the Government ......

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Excuse me, Mr CHIM Pui-chung, this seems to have nothing to do with district administration. You should obtain other opportunities to discuss it in future.

MR CHIM PUI-CHUNG (in Cantonese): Madam President, I agree with you, because despite your view about Mr PATTEN, you have not allowed me to continue with my speech. This shows that I might have gone too far. Nonetheless, the whole government system needs to be reviewed. In the past, the general public discriminated strongly against the Pui Kiu Middle School, Fu Kien Middle School and Hon Wah Middle School, and these schools were labelled as the "leftists". Madam President, this is why after some studies, I consider it necessary to conduct a review on the Urban Council and the Regional Council, and even the whole government system. In the past, undue constraints were put upon the two Councils. Madam President, I also understand how the system works and so I am not asking for a review of the whole Government structure and the Provisional Urban Council.

I hope that this motion debate will make the Government realize that the whole structure of the Provisional Urban Council, regardless of the number of tiers it comprises, as well as the structure of the SAR Government should undergo major changes in respect of policy implementation. After the 1997 handover, it is no longer the colonial era. The system of having the Provisional Urban Council and the Provisional Regional Council has become history. I would therefore like to take this opportunity to remind the SAR Government that the principle of "50 years remaining unchanged" means that the capitalist system and the socialist system will remain unchanged. It does not mean that all administration and structures within the systems should remain unchanged. If we still cling onto this idea, some members of the public might end up protesting strongly and expressing their views against the injustice one day. We are not trying to lead Hong Kong towards the socialist system or other systems. We are just considering that some unfair and undemocratic systems did exist in the former Regional Council and Urban Council. Once again, I want to emphasize that we have to take all aspects into account. I strongly believe that some media will criticize me by quoting what I said just now. But, as a Member of the Provisional Legislative Council, I must point out the injustice. People can have their own views and comments. Of course, there is freedom of speech in this Council. Madam President, I hope I can express my view in a more in-depth manner.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members, Mr CHIM Pui-chung just remarked that although the President had some views about Mr PATTEN, still has not allowed him to continue with his speech and that it showed he had really gone too far. In fact, the President's personal opinion has no bearing at all because the President should be impartial. So I hope Mr CHIM could confine his speech to the motion in future. If he wishes to propose any particular question, I believe this Council will welcome his initiation of a motion debate for such a purpose. Mr TSANG Yok-sing.

MR TSANG YOK-SING (in Cantonese): Madam President, as we all know, to redevelop an old district is more difficult than to build a new one as more effort is needed. Similarly, to reform a long-established system, the problems to be considered will be much more complex than what we may encounter in designing a new system. We cannot simply act according to a "rationalized" or "idealized" standard. In my opinion, should Britain wait until today to design its parliamentary system, it would not have established a House of Lords which is not returned by election. However, this noble parliament still exists and performs its functions well.

The two municipal Councils and the District Boards have a history of development of their own. The District Boards and the Regional Council are products of the representative government implemented by the Government in the '80s. But long before that, the Urban Council has already been set up and it has already established its own functions and manner of operation.

Just now, several colleagues have mentioned repeatedly the functions of the two municipal Councils and the work of the District Boards. We can see that there must be some overlapping in the area of concern of these two tiers of district organizations. In fact, ever since the establishment of District Boards, there has always been debates on whether these two tiers of structure should be allowed to co-exist. In those years, the Drafting Committee of the Basic Law was also concerned about this question. However, the Committee has adopted a prudent attitude towards this question. The Basic Law did not specifically provided for the district organizations of the SAR, and the two-tier structures are collectively referred to as organizations which are "not organs of political power", with their functions and methods for their formation to be dealt with by the SAR Government.

In addition to the relationship between the two tiers of structure, the roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation of the two municipal Councils and the District Boards have much that are worth reviewing. Since the '80s when the two Councils and the District Boards began to develop, their composition and mode of operation have undergone a lot of changes. We have also seen new scenarios in respect of politics, economy and people's livelihood in society. Moreover, people have very different demands and expectations of each tier nowadays when compared with what they have a decade ago. So, our main purpose in reviewing district administration is to ensure that it can better complement the development of society.

In conducting a comprehensive review on the two-tier system of the district organizations, the SAR Government should note that the debate on district administration among members of the community has not merely started today. Of course, we can see that there are a lot of problems with the existing structures and their mode of operation. Nevertheless, these structures have kept operating amid all these controversies. There must be some reasons for this. If we are too conservative, it is undesirable. But in order to search for the right direction for reform and to ensure smooth implementation of reforms, we must fully assess the problems and difficulties and solicit extensive support from the community.

As such, it is essential to consult the public extensively and openly for the purpose of conducting a review on the structure of district administration. Before the review is conducted, it is inappropriate to pre-set a direction for and impose limitations on the review.

With these remarks, Madam President, I support the Honourable CHENG Kai-nam's amendment and oppose the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi's original motion as well as the Honourable Bruce LIU's amendment. Thank you.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mrs Selina CHOW.

MRS SELINA CHOW (in Cantonese): Madam President, when Sir MacLEHOSE was the incumbent Governor, he made three reforms to the political system of Hong Kong. These reforms are actually relevant to today's debate. First, setting up District Boards; second, establishing the Regional Council; and third, setting up the Recreation and Culture Branch. At that time, I was a member of the Urban Council and was therefore able to make some suggestions to Sir MacLEHOSE. For instance, I was of the opinion that District Boards should not act solely as advisory bodies and they should be given administrative power. Otherwise, they would only have powers but no responsibilities. As regards the Regional Council, I opined that there was no need to set up another municipal council in addition to the Urban Council then existed because their co-existence might lead to poor co-ordination. I am not a conspiracy theorist. But regarding this particular issue, I think I am. If we look carefully, we will find that there is a reason for such an arrangement. Under this arrangement, the two organizations have administered in their own ways. There is no central co-ordination, co-operation and well-defined division of labour. Neither is there any connection nor subordinating relationship between the two bodies. In my opinion, the genuine motive for setting up these two municipal Councils is very simple and that is to "divide and rule". It is a trick for the purpose of establishing colonial rule rather than facilitating central control as what the Honourable Bruce LIU said. In view of this, it is imperative for us to conduct an appropriate review now.

In fact, the entire system of district administration is inherently defective. I am sure Members have also observed a lot of improper arrangements. For instance, the objective of the traditional and well-established gentlemen's agreement was to bind the former Legislative Council. I believe the existing Provisional Legislative Council is also being bound in a way that it cannot intervene in the operation of the Urban Council within its terms of reference. It seems that there is a clear dividing line, but this is actually inappropriate because both the former Legislative Council and the present Provisional Legislative Council are supposed to be responsible for monitoring the overall policy implementation of the Government, and it would be unreasonable if there was anything which we cannot ask, query, or make someone accountable for. But in reality, when we ask the Government about the two municipal Councils, the Government will invariably reply that "this is not your business". The two Councils are autonomous bodies. We can only have our questions answered through the "middleman" ─ the Broadcasting, Culture and Sport Bureau ─ set up by the Government for the purpose of conveying messages. This is entirely unsatisfactory and inadequate. I would like cite a problem I once encountered. As a representative of the Wholesale and Retail Constituency, I was of course very concerned about the hawker problem because such practices as illegal hawking by unlicensed hawkers and illegal shop extension by licensed hawkers would lead to unfair competition. So, I asked the Urban Council how this problem would be dealt with because the two municipal Councils spend $900 million every year to tackle this problem and we could still see illegal hawking everywhere in the streets. Can Members imagine how many departments I have visited because of this problem? The answer is the Urban Services Department, the Regional Services Department and the Housing Department. This is because there was no co-ordinating policy or co-ordinating body to deal with these matters. This is far from satisfactory. Obviously, this reflects that the huge sum of money spent by the Government has failed to achieve the desired result.

For instance, the co-ordinating problem in respect of culture and arts mentioned by the Honourable CHAN Choi-hi just now is fundamentally a complete failure. This is because the Government has very limited funds. The money is mainly in the hand of the two municipal Councils and so are the venues. Under such circumstances, how can a central policy be effectively implemented? Whenever I asked the relevant Secretary this question, he would only say that he was unable to control the finance and he could do nothing about it.

These are only some of the examples. The Government should review this problem in a practical way. We, members of the Liberal Party, totally support that a comprehensive and democratic review should be conducted in this respect as we should not be bound by historical burdens. The common goal of the original motion and its two amendments is to conduct a review and do it as soon as possible and I fully agree with it. What I cannot agree with is the amendment moved by Mr Bruce LIU for he proposed to set a direction for the review. Though such a direction has been mentioned by many Members, Mr LIU has failed to make it clear that he would definitely put his proposal into practice. He only expressed that this direction deserved a review for it might lead to problems related to the use of resources.

Madam President, we support the three motions, that is, the original motion and the two amendments.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak? I now invite Mr CHAN Choi-hi to speak on the two amendments. Mr CHAN, you have five minutes.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, on the surface, there is not much difference between my original motion and the two amendments. Like Mr Bruce LIU, I had a struggle in my mind at the beginning whether I should present what was deep in my heart for Members make their choice? At last, I decided I dared not write it down. Why? I think if I hastily propose the merger of the two tiers into one tier before a comprehensive review is conducted, it may be too rash. As far as abbreviation effort is concerned, for instance, we can do it by sticking the label of the Urban Council to the District Boards or re-demarcate the district boundaries. However, I do not want to jump into a preconceived conclusion hastily that we must do this. So after some struggles in my mind, I finally confined the scope of review to the roles, functions, division of labour and so on like what Mr Bruce LIU did.

As for, the amendments proposed by the two Members, in fact they do not differ greatly from my motion. All of us support the carrying out of a comprehensive review on such issues as the roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation in the light of district administration. The only difference is that the Honourable CHENG Kai-nam proposed that the public should be consulted extensively and openly. In my opinion, extensive consultations must be conducted for making any epoch-making or fundamental policy changes. I cannot see that we should hastily change district administration overnight without extensive consultation. Although I do not mention extensive consultation in my original motion, I think any such important task must be accompanied by an extensive consultation. I did not write it down in my original motion but the motion in fact carries such an implied meaning. As far as consultation is concerned, it may be conducted in the form of a green paper or by means of multi-level policy consultation. Furthermore, consultation should not be conducted as a one-off exercise. I think it can be carried out in several rounds instead. We can even have initial consultation and conduct further consultation again after preparing the relevant documents.

All in all, I think my original motion does not bear a great difference from the amendments proposed by the two Members. Our direction is the same except that Mr Bruce LIU has specifically made a request in the last part of his amendment. Of course, my request may be embraced in it as well. My original motion bears such an implication, only that it might be even bolder. At the present stage, I do not want to say too hastily what is in my heart before a comprehensive review is conducted. It seems that it is not too appropriate for me to inform Members of my pre-determined conditions before they could listen to other opinions.

I believe that my original motion deserves Members' support.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary for Constitutional Affairs.

SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Madam President, first of all I would like to thank Members for expressing various views during today's motion debate. It is the Government's long-established policy of district administration to cater for the needs of local communities and complement the development of society. Over the past years, the roles and functions of the Urban Council, the Regional Council and the district boards have evolved in order to cater for the needs of society. These district organizations provide numerous important services for Hong Kong people and serve as a major bridge between the Government and the public at large. The Government attaches importance to these organizations particularly because they make it easier for the Government to understand people's needs and facilitate the co-ordination of government work.

The Urban Council and the Regional Council are statutory bodies. Their powers and functions are separately provided for in the Urban Council Ordinance and the Regional Council Ordinance. Within their statutory terms of reference, they have autonomous power to formulate their own service policies and decide on how to deploy their resources. The Urban Council and the Regional Council provide a wide range of municipal services for about 3.3 million people in the urban area and about 3 million people in the New Territories respectively and are responsible for safeguarding environmental hygiene and public health. They also play very important roles in providing cultural and entertainment programmes as well as recreational facilities. For the purposing of reflecting public views, the Urban Council set up offices throughout the urban area to enable members of the Urban Council to meet the public. On the other hand, nine geographical-based committees have been set up under the Regional Council to reflect local needs and aspiration in respect of the provision of municipal services as well as cultural and recreational facilities. Through these diversified services and various channels to collect public views, the Urban Council and the Regional Council have become important service providers for various strata in the community and major channels for reflecting views of the community to the Government.

District Boards are statutory bodies established under the District Boards Ordinance. Their main function is to advise the Government on matters which are of concerns to the people living and working within the districts. Since their establishment, the District Boards have played an important role in consulting the public and encouraging public participation in district affairs. Through giving advice, the District Boards have made important contributions to the Government in managing district affairs. Each District Board operates the Meet-the-Public Scheme through which the public may meet with District Board members to express their views on district matters. The district boards will also reflect the public's views on matters such as law and order, social services and health care, which are of concern to the public. The achievements made by the District Boards in this respect are recognized and taken seriously by the Government.

The Urban Council and the Regional Council have a close link with the District Boards. Each District Board in the urban area has one representative to sit on the Urban Council. A similar arrangement also exists between the Regional Council and the District Boards in the New Territories. In addition, representatives from various District Boards in the New Territories also sit on the District Committees under the Regional Council. Through these arrangements, the Urban Council and the Regional Council are fully aware of the needs of local districts and such an arrangement also helps the two Councils provide the services needed accordingly.

All in all, the Government recognizes the achievements of the Urban Council, Regional Council and the District Boards and their contributions to society. Nevertheless, we frequently heard members of the community express opinions on district administration and made suggestions for changes. This is an important subject and we are pleased to listen to opinions from all sides. We acknowledge there is a need to ensure that the relevant system is able to meet the ever changing needs of the community. We, therefore, will not rule out the need for a review.

Today I have listened very carefully to the views expressed by Honourable Members on the motion, and I thank them for their advice. I will analyze and consider the views very carefully. I can offer the assurance that if any major changes are to be made to the present system, the Government will definitely conduct extensive consultation beforehand. Thank you, Madam President.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now call upon Mr CHENG Kai-nam to move his amendment to the motion. Mr CHENG Kai-nam.

MR CHENG KAI-NAM (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Mr CHAN Choi-hi's motion be amended as set out on the Agenda.

Mr CHENG Kai-nam moved the following amendment:

"To add "consult the public extensively and openly in conducting" after "the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should"; to delete "conduct"; to delete "cater for" and substitute with "complement"; and to delete "the needs of local communities" and substitute with "the development of society"."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment moved by Mr CHENG Kai-nam be made to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's motion.

I now put the question to you as stated.

Will those in favour of the amendment please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the amendment is carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Bruce LIU, as Mr CHENG's amendment has been agreed, the wording of your original amendment needs to be revised. I have approved the revised wording of your amendment and Members have been notified.

In accordance with the House Committee's recommendation which I have also accepted, you have up to three minutes to speak when moving the amendment, but should confine it to explaining the revised wording in the amendment. You may not repeat what you have already covered in your earlier speech.

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, would you read out the revised version of my amendment because I am afraid that Members may not have time to read it carefully.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi's motion as amended by Mr CHENG Kai-nam will be further amended by Mr Bruce LIU's revised amendment. The wording of the motion now read as follows: "That this Council proposes that the Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region should consult the public extensively and openly in conducting a comprehensive review of district administration, including the roles, functions, division of labour and resource allocation of the Urban Council, the Regional Council and the District Boards, so that district administration can better complement the development of society." This is the amended motion. Now Mr Bruce LIU requests to further amend it by adding "and examine the feasibility of streamlining the existing two-tier system of the district organizations or of merging the two tiers into a single tier system." Mr LIU, would you like to explain?

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Madam President, I move that Mr CHAN Choi-hi's motion as amended by Mr CHENG Kai-nam be further amended by my amendment as read out by the President just now.

I have two comments to make. The wording of this amendment carries two features after revision. Firstly, the premise of the original motion will be retained and will remain unchanged and that means district administration should be reviewed.

MR ANDREW WONG (in Cantonese): Madam President, a point of order. I believe at the present stage, Mr Bruce LIU can only explain the amendment he must make in terms of its wording as a result of the passage of the first amendment. He cannot speak on his amendment again. If he is allowed to speak again, other Members may also like to speak.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The point of order raised by Mr Andrew WONG is correct. Mr Bruce LIU, you can only explain the wording of your revised amendment. Do you need to explain, because the wording is already quite clear?

MR BRUCE LIU (in Cantonese): Secondly, Madam President, I would like to explain why the wording is arranged in such a manner. This is because Members may have misunderstood that the wording of "examine" or "the feasibility of merging" refers to a single tier. In many of the speeches delivered by Members just now, there was misunderstanding as to the meaning of "examine" and "the feasibility". I only propose that if a review is needed, this direction should be examined. This is because a review without substance is just like "congee without rice". This is the only point I would like to add.

Thank you, Madam President.

Mr Bruce LIU moved the following amendment:

"To delete "so that district administration can better cater for the needs of local communities" and substitute with "and examine the feasibility of streamlining the existing two-tier system of the district organizations or of merging the two tiers into a single tier system"."

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr Bruce LIU's amendment to Mr CHAN Choi-hi's motion as amended by Mr CHENG Kai-nam be approved.

I now put the question to you as stated.

Will those in favour of the amendment please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(Members responded)

Mr IP Kwok-him and Mr Bruce LIU rose to claim to a division.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Some Members have claimed a division. The division bell will ring for three minutes.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Council will now proceed to vote.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If there is no query, the result will now be displayed.

Mr James TIEN, Mr HO Sai-chu, Dr Raymond HO, Mr NG Leung-sing, Mr Eric LI, Mr LEE Kai-ming, Mrs Selina CHOW, Mrs Peggy LAM, Mr Ronald ARCULLI, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Dr LEONG Che-hung, Mr MOK Ying-fan, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Andrew WONG, Mr Howard YOUNG, Mr CHIM Pui-chung, Mr Bruce LIU, Mrs Miriam LAU and Dr LAW Cheung-kwok voted for the amendment.

Mr WONG Siu-yee, Mr Henry WU, Mr YUEN Mo, Dr TSO WONG Man-yin, Mr CHAN Wing-chan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr TSANG Yok-sing, Mr CHENG Kai-nam, Dr Charles YEUNG, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr LAU Kong-wah, Mr Ambrose LAU, Mr CHOY Kan-pui, Dr TANG Siu-tong, Mr NGAN Kam-chuen, Mr LO Suk-ching, Mr TAM Yiu-chung and Miss CHOY So-yuk voted against the amendment.

Mr CHAN Choi-hi and Mr Timothy FOK abstained.

THE PRESIDENT announced that there were 19 in favour of the amendment, 18 against and two abstaining. She therefore declared that the amendment was carried.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Choi-hi, you are now entitled to reply and you have one minute 24 seconds out of your original 15 minutes.

MR CHAN CHOI-HI (in Cantonese): Madam President, I have listened very carefully to Members' speeches and I would like to thank Members for their enthusiasm to speak on this topic. Having listened to so many speeches, I think most Members support a review of district administration and only some individual Members query the timing for conducting such an exercise. In my opinion, although the review does not necessarily need to be carried out by this Council within this Session, it should be put on the Agenda for the coming Legislative session.

In my opinion, it is very important for us to consider how to re-organize district administration. I do not think district administration can run well without a review. To start from square one seems to mean ─ I do not want to use an English word, but I cannot think of any other word to express it ─ "re-engineering", which means to re-design and re-construct. We should start from square one and consider how to implement district administration, how to re-engineer our district administration.

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr CHAN Choi-hi as amended by Mr CHENG and further amended by Mr LIU be approved.

Will those in favour please say "aye"?

(Members responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please say "no".

(No Member responded)

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the "ayes" have it. I declare that the motion as amended is carried.

NEXT SITTING

PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): In accordance with the Rules of Procedure, I now adjourn the meeting until 2.30 pm on Wednesday, 24 September 1997.

Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes past Seven o'clock.

Post-meeting note:The meeting originally scheduled for 24 September 1997 was subsequently postponed to 27 September 1997. 2 PROVISIONAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 10 September 1997

13 PROVISIONAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 10 September 1997